From a $1,500 Race Car to the Hall of Fame (and Why He Walked Away) - Carl Edwards - #406

Chris Powers: When was the first time you thought, this is the life I'm going to go down as far as car racing? Because for someone like me, I'm so removed from that world, I don't even know how you would get into it. And because one of the things that defines you, based on me talking to your friends, me knowing you, me researching you, is you were pretty focused, like to a level that's, I would say maybe 1% of the world gets to a level of focus like that. 

Carl Edwards: Yeah. So when did I first think about driving a race car? I think for me, my father, and these all sound like these... It sounds cliche. But now the more I look back, I realize how much of an influence my father had on me. And we had a very difficult relationship for most of my life. It's really great right now. But I realized looking back that my desire to drive a race car probably really originated, it's from him. It was his love. I mean, my dad grew up not in a racing family. He basically left college and bought a little Volkswagen repair shop. And his hobby was building race cars and driving them. So, my earliest memories are going to the dirt track to watch my dad race. And he won all the time. And so, my dad was like this mythical figure. I remember in second grade, Ms. Riley's class, my dad, there was a little neat article, actually well written in the paper about him as a race car driver. And the teacher read it to the class and posted it on the wall. And I thought, my dad's a freaking hero. I mean, this is so cool. And so I had never put this together, really, until you just asked me, but I think that was the moment where I thought, man, that's really cool. And it was my father.

Chris Powers: How old were you? 

Carl Edwards: So I was seven years old. And so, I remember there was this line in the article, it's a newspaper article in the Columbia Daily Tribune. And it was something like, Carl Edwards, it's midnight, he's at the shop, he just won the race in Marshall, Missouri. And he's writing in his journal so that he can be better the next time. And this is his thing that he does. And I remember thinking, and oh, and the line was, when the lights shut off at the track, he left with his trophy. And I thought, man, my dad is a freaking adventurer. Like, he's this courageous warrior out there driving race cars. And so that was probably the seed. 

Chris Powers: Okay, so what happened from 7 to where... Okay, so you think that. We don't have to go like 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. But like, how does that progress? So, your dad obviously probably keeps driving. So that stays in the family. And you're around it. When did you actually get into a car? 

Carl Edwards: So I think I have always really loved operating machines, and so just I loved it. I loved building model airplanes and racing little radio control cars and stuff. I didn't really think that it was possible for me to get into a race car, drive it because there's so many things that go with racing. It costs so much, there's such a high barrier to entry. But somehow it... it just infected me. And I was so passionate about it. I can't describe it. It's all I wanted to do. My dad let me, when I was 14 years old, he let me drive his little four cylinder car that he was winning all the time up in Macomb, Illinois. And during intermission between the heat race and the feature, he said, well, you can go out there and run a couple laps. And the guy that was at the pit gate saying if you can go or not, my dad asked him, is it okay if my son goes out? And he said, well, if he's got a helmet on, I can't really tell who it is, Carl. My dad's name's Carl. So, he said, Carl, you can go out there if you want. So, I went out. I remember I was in this, it's a four cylinder car, probably 200 horsepower. Fifth mile dirt track. I couldn't see through the face shield. That was my first- I thought, my dad's driving, he can't even see. He had this old ratty face shield all torn up. And so, I stepped on the throttle and it scared me so bad. I ran a couple laps. I probably looked like a complete idiot out there. But it was such a challenge. And I realized when you watch these race cars go around, it looks like everything just, it goes well. The car is on rails and everything. But the driver in there is really making every decision. He's battling with himself. He's trying to execute some strategy, but it's terrifying. And all these things just clicked for me at about 14, and then that's it. That's all I wanted to do. And so, from there, it was building a race car, which my dad helped me do. We got it done when I was fifteen and a half. It took a while. It was a fifteen hundred dollar car. We had to lengthen my dad's trailer so we could put two cars on it. He made a fake driver's license for me so that I could go race. And I started going with my dad on Friday nights, Saturday nights, and sometimes Sundays. And we would go race these little four cylinder cars, ten lap races at local dirt tracks. 

Chris Powers: And we can tie this into NASCAR too. You already said the word, like you had to have a strategy. So, when I think about it, I'm like, these guys are getting in cars. Don't laugh at this. And they're just, the winner is just the person who can floor it the longest. We had a conversation in Columbia and you kind of got into it. And so, the question's a little bit like this. And you also made a comment on Dale Earnhardt's podcast I listened to, and you were like, this was a 20th place car that I got to 12th place. So question one is, what is the strategy? 

Carl Edwards: Okay, so race car driving at its core, and to anybody out there who drives a car, you can practice these things. It's really fun. But race car driving at its core is basically managing the grip level of the four tires. So, you have to pick, like if we're going to go down- if we're going to go 200 miles an hour that way, turn around and go 200 miles an hour the other way, there's a whole bunch that has to happen between full throttle, which down the straightaway, hey, full throttle, most of the time, you could be going 200 miles an hour and you can look around, wave at your friend, you can do whatever you want. But then this corner comes up and let's say you can only go 150 miles an hour through the corner. Well, first you have to pick the perfect arc. You have to make sure that coincides with the best grip level of the racetrack. And then somehow you have to get that car to slow down from 200 to 150 without wasting, I mean, any opportunity to change directions. So, it would be brake at the limit, turn, all four tires are sliding the perfect amount. And then as you get to the middle of the corner, you're pushing the throttle just enough to not spin the rears, and you slide right out to the wall and you go down the other straightaway. And at a place like Bristol Motor Speedway, for example, you'll do that a thousand times, 500 laps, and you'll do it, in my career, it was with 42 other drivers, all that have a team of, let's say, somewhere between 20 and 100 people on their team that are all trying to figure out how to make the car and the strategy and all that go faster than the other person. So, it becomes this amazing chess game. And then on top of that, the real icing for a driver is that a good driver can do all of those things and say, hey, I'm a 200ths of a second off and here's why. I need the right front tire to have a little more grip while the nose is dropping or when it hits the bump. And so, you have to tell your team that in real time. And so, it's really just a high speed puzzle with a team and a machine. And it gets really complicated. But when it’s going well, it's like playing a musical instrument. It's so wonderful. 

Chris Powers: Is this a matter of like hitting, like are you picking spots and hitting within centimeters and inches? 

Carl Edwards: Yeah. So, when a race car driver is really tuned in, I think I could speak for all of them, you feel, it's like our brains are the drivers of our body. And I mean, I kind of know where my hand is in space. But a good race car driver in a car that he's very familiar with, go watch like Ken Block or somebody, the videos, they can basically put any portion of the car, it's like you can feel it as part of your being. And so, yeah, I mean, you could run right up to the wall and just touch it each time, sliding and it becomes part of you. 

Chris Powers: Okay. A 20th place car that you, it was either you or somebody got into 12th, the obvious question for me is why isn't everybody just having a first place car? Like, what's the place car and a 20th? Is it the fact that you have a better 100 person team that knows how to design the car better or...? Because you also see it in horse races. There's just some horses at the Kentucky Derby you know are not going to win. 

Carl Edwards: Okay. So, people, like my son's been reading this book that Adrian Newey wrote, How to Build a Car. And let's just pick something super simple. So let's say tire pressure, which isn't simple, but...

Chris Powers: It's not simple?

Carl Edwards: No. But the difference between a car with the correct tire pressure and one without the tire pressure could make a huge difference. But to understand what tire pressure you need, you have to understand that the, like in an oval race, for example, the right side and left side tires are different. They're constructed differently. You have to also take into account when the suspension moves where the wheels actually, they change. So, they call that bump steer. So, everything moves around. Then throughout the run, like let's say lap one versus lap 20, the tire increases in temperature a huge amount. Any moisture inside of the air in the tire, that increases in volume, so the tire gets to be a higher PSI. And so, my engineers might understand that on lap 18, my tires are going to be perfectly shaped, pointed, arranged to where I make the most grip. And your engineers might have missed it. So now you've got a 10th place car. We've got a first place car. And that's just the tires. 

Chris Powers: But is the first place car always the first place car, or does it change week to week? 

Carl Edwards: It changes week to week. Every track is different. If you get cloud cover that comes over, now the environment is different. And so yeah. But in general, and I think this is across basically most of life, great process wins, understanding the game, understanding your options, maximizing the decisions you make and the scenario so that you have the highest chance of success, lowest chance of failure. Some teams, just like all of life and business, personal, whatever, they rise because they have great process and understanding of the challenge. 

Chris Powers: Is it only in hindsight that you know you didn't have the first place car that week, or do you arrive knowing, I'm not- I don't have a first place car this week?

Carl Edwards: Sometimes, I can tell you there were a number of times in my career where you'd get done with a race or even practice, and everybody’d be saying, man, you're so fast. You're so great. And it's like, oh... I mean, you know it's not me. Like, I know or I knew, like that car, any one of these guys could get in that car and win with it. It's such a spectacular car. When they get the aerodynamics of the car perfect, all the suspension's perfect, the tire pressure, everything's wonderful, it becomes simple. And then there were times like you alluded to that Dale and I talked about where you know you have a 20th place car. I mean, this car is just- maybe even a 30th place car. And because you make good decisions and things go your way, you finish 10th with it. And most people, like nobody outside the car would say, oh, man, that was a win. But you know in your heart, like that was the best that anyone could do with that. 

Chris Powers: This might be a dumb question. Why would people show up knowing they have a 30th place car? 

Carl Edwards: Oh my gosh. These are good questions. 

Chris Powers: Is it just because it's better to be in- like it's still a victory to be in NASCAR and be on the track and 12th place is cool if you're doing it at the best in the world, or is there a reason why somebody would accept that? 

Carl Edwards: It's a great question. So later in my career, the part that like if you went on YouTube when you looked at Carl Edwards’ career, I was always in first place cars. So, I drove for Jack Roush, I drove for Coach Gibbs, Ford Motor Company, Toyota. But why would someone show up with not a great car? The simplest answer is sometimes because you just can't. You don't have the resources. Early in my career, I drove a ton of cars that were just, I mean, we got to the racetrack and we had a car. But in an environment, usually at the racetrack, everyone kind of knows the level of your equipment. And the people there know if a driver shows up and does well with something that maybe shouldn't do well. So there are times where showing up with a 30th place car, running 10th or 12th with it can land you a bunch of opportunities. 

Chris Powers: Okay, last question on cars maybe. 

Carl Edwards: I haven't talked as much about cars for a long time. 

Chris Powers: Could you theoretically- what's the furthest place car you could start with and still get first? 

Carl Edwards: Okay, so this is a better question than maybe you know, because it hits at what type of racing do you consider to be great racing. So, in NASCAR right now, there is what I see, a lot of people maybe don't see this, but I see as kind of a question whether we want to be, whether it's a true talent based sport or a little more of a crapshoot. And so, the scenario in which you could show up with a 30th place car and win the race would be the restrictor plate style races. And you see more of those in NASCAR now because they really are pretty exciting to watch. But it becomes a lot more of a crapshoot because it's more of what you described as your view of racing, which is, hey, we put our foot down, we never lift off the throttle. The corners are so big and the cars are, they're only going 190 miles an hour and you can make the corner at 190 so you don't have to lift. So now it becomes a bunch of pushing, positioning yourself, the luck of not being caught in the wreck. And so in that type of environment, a 30th place car on its own, speed wise can win the race. 

Chris Powers: Okay, the last component, I think, the, what do we call them, the crew? 

Carl Edwards: Yes. 

Chris Powers: How important are they? And like what's their- are there 30th place crews and first place crews? Like is the skill level so unbelievable that we don't give it credit to what changing a tire in four seconds or what it is actually means? 

Carl Edwards: So, in auto racing, the closer the competition is, by definition, any advantage or disadvantage is a larger factor. And so the harder it is to pass, the closer the field is, if you pull onto pit road and your pit crew can pass three cars on pit road, I promise you as a driver, the old saying is the easiest place to pass cars is on pit road. Because like, I mean, I just sit there or a driver sits there and your guys change tires and put fuel in it faster than everyone else. And that is way easier than passing a professional cutthroat race car driver on the racetrack. So it's hugely important. And I just had a chance the other day to tour Joe Gibbs's facility where they're doing pit crew training. And it would blow your mind the way they train and record and advance those guys’ skills. 

Chris Powers: So, if you had to say car, driver, pit crew, is it a third, a third, a third importance? What's the most important? How do you rank them?

Carl Edwards: On average, I would say that's correct. But different racetracks are different. So like I said, we go to Talladega, it's 2.66 miles. It's a huge racetrack, 30 something degrees of banking. I mean, you and I, after 20 minutes, you could go the same speed as me by yourself around that racetrack. 

Chris Powers: Really? 

Carl Edwards: Yeah, you put your foot on the floor. We do some- build your confidence and then you'd go 200 miles an hour, no problem. At that racetrack, it is the skill level is not as important. If we went to Sonoma or Mexico City, it's a road course, tons of things going on, it might rain. Now you see, it becomes like way more into the driver's hands. It's just a much more dynamic situation. So, it really depends on the race. But overall, when you see a team win in professional auto racing, it's a really good mix of amazing driver, amazing car, great execution by the crew, usually a manufacturer that backs them up with huge resources in engineering. It's really tough and probably more complicated than most people would know just from watching on TV. 

Chris Powers: When a NFL team is done on Sunday, they're working out all week, they're watching tons of film to prepare for the next week. What does a NASCAR driver do from Sunday till Sunday? 

Carl Edwards: So, I've been out of the game as a driver for quite a while, but for me, the prep between races was really some of the most fun stuff because you just work on every variable as a driver that you can. And so, it was tons of time on my bicycle in the heat, just trying to be ready for the environment. That's one thing about cars that doesn't come through the television. It's an extremely hot environment. It shocked me the first couple of times I raced in a hot car. You're trying to work with your team to get a plan because practice time is limited. As much as it- the idea of having a radio that you can talk to your crew and all that, the communication time is virtually nil. So you have to almost be thinking, you have to have gone through everything so many times ahead of time that you can get a message across in a couple seconds. But for the driver, it's really prepping for the next event in pretty straightforward ways. The crew, it's a spectacular feat what the race crews do. To get two cars- Every NASCAR team basically takes two cars to the track in case you have one that you wreck, they got a spare car. They leave that race. They go back to the shop. They unload those cars. There was another team at the shop preparing the next week's two cars. And that goes on for like 40 weeks a year. It's insane. I mean, it's such a logistical feat. The NASCAR season is a real grind. 

Chris Powers: I got it... We went sideways. So we talked... We talked about NASCAR, which you made it to. I want to go back in the storyline. I believe the guy's name is Mike. You were sitting in the shop and you were like, I think I'm done. You didn't get picked to drive. And in my research, every- There's been multiple people that have asked you about that, but there's a moment where you went from, I think I'm done, but you kind of like dug yourself out of this hole, and you said, I'm going to move forward. You've never explained how you went from I'm done to I'm going to push on. 

Carl Edwards: So I had a great trainer later in my career named Dean Golich. Dean is an exercise physiologist. He's brilliant. 

Chris Powers: Like a physical trainer? 

Carl Edwards: Yes. So later in my career, I'm going to get to your question. But Dean described something that I felt my whole life, but I never really understood. He said, fatigue makes cowards of us all. And so that moment you're alluding to was, so we talked about my dad. I thought racing's really neat. Then I thought, boy, this is what I want to do more than anything. And from that moment to the actual, like, hey, I've got a multi year contract in NASCAR was very difficult in the sense that the chances were basically zero that it would work out. I mean, it was just, it was like late 90s, early 2000s. NASCAR was exploding in popularity. I mean, I am the most privileged person ever. My father's cousin is Kenny Schrader. He was a NASCAR driver. So, I had this one connection where I knew somebody that would help me. He introduced me to a couple people. But I was just a dirt racer in Columbia, Missouri, wanting to drive in NASCAR. Mike Mittler was a NASCAR truck team. There were trucks, the truck series, the Busch series, and the Cup series, so about 90 teams in the country. And those are all the seats. That's about it. Mike Mittler's truck team was within driving distance of my house. It was about two hours away in St. Louis. And so, I just started going to the shop. And first I called and said, hey, I'd like to drive your truck. He laughed, basically. And then I would call again, and finally the secretary's like, look, Mike, he's not taking your call. I was like, damn. Okay. So then I started going to the shop, and he said, I don't have a job for you. I was like, well, cool. So I just start working at the shop anyway. And fast forward, like a year or two of that, and I realized that this wasn't going to work out. I realized that I'm racing at my local dirt track, my family... 

Chris Powers: But you were good? You were a good dirt track racer? 

Carl Edwards: I felt like I was pretty good. 

Chris Powers: Like, were you winning? 

Carl Edwards: Yes. We won our Track Championship in ’99 and 2000. I'm working at Mittler's shop. And he's like, look, man, I'm never- I'm not gonna- He's like, there's a million guys like you, okay? Like every dirt track in the country has a guy like you. He said, so you seem nice and everything, but it's not happening. I said, what would I have to do to separate myself? And he said, well, he said, there's this series. It's the USAC Silver Crown series. And I said, yeah, I'm familiar with it. And he said, Kenny Irwin, Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Kasey Kahne, they came from that series, and every single one of them's fast. He said if you could run well in something like that, well, you'd be different. I was like, okay. So I went home. We had just won two track championships with our modified that was basically all borrowed and parts. I sold everything I had, trailer, modified. I didn't own a pickup truck. We had an old church bus that we bought for $1,200. Sold it all, had about, I think it was $16,000. There was a USAC silver crown car for sale. Like, no spares, none of that. Just the car. It was 32 or 34,000. I think it was 34,000. And I mean, we lived in a $60,000 home. Our family never had a new car. I mean, it was- I was like, there's no way we can do this. But I started talking to my mom, and she said, hey, I've got $18,000 in the bank. That's our savings. And I was like, well, that's pretty interesting, because 18 and 16 kind of equals what we need. And my dad said, under no circumstances will we take our life savings and put it into a freaking 700 horsepower race car that you've never driven. I mean, these are like the hardest- Like, this is real racing. You're sitting in a chair, there's a 700 or 800 horsepower engine in front of you. A drive shaft runs under your butt. There's 70 gallons of fuel against your back. And like, it's crazy... And my mom said, I don't know, like... I remember she asked me. She says, is this the only way? And I was like, mom- God, I'm going to cry telling this, because I can't imagine that she did all this. So, I said, I'm telling you, I have absolutely rung this thing out. I've talked to everyone. I've passed out thousands of business cards. I've slept in the car, driven around the country. I can't do this. Like, this is- It's like we buy this thing and we go for it. Or just this is it. So she went to the bank, my dad was pissed, and we got a literal bag of cash, and we took it to Jean Beach and bought this car. And so, I had a fifteen hundred dollar trailer. I borrowed my buddy Darren Beach's pickup truck. We stole four barrels of diesel fuel from another buddy, I won't mention his name, he worked at a trucking company, loaded everything up, and I drove out to Phoenix, Arizona, for this one race that I had a car. I asked a bunch of questions of a bunch of people, figured out how to set it up, and drove to Phoenix. And to tell you how bad it was- So this is it. All the chips are on this thing. 

Chris Powers: And is everybody like, who the hell is this Carl guy when you're arriving? Or did people kind of know who you were? 

Carl Edwards: No. First, the wisest person in my life that knew more about racing than anybody told me, you're going to kill yourself and you're going to bankrupt your family. This is the worst idea ever. This is a professional driver. So, I was like, okay. Oh, back to the decision. The only person I called, he's passed away now, but his name's Timmy Kahooth. He was someone who helped me. And I called Timmy and said, what should I do? Me and my mom are sitting here. And it was the greatest advice ever. He called me Junior. He said, Junior, it's like it's your life savings, your mom's life savings and you don't know how to drive one of these cars, it's your only shot. And I was like, yep, that's it. He said, sometimes in life you got to just say, what the hell. I was like, really? And he's like, I think you should do it. And so that was it. So, anyway, we get to Phoenix. I'm down here working on this car. The fenders fell off of my trailer, like in New Mexico. And I'm by myself, and this guy, Philip Charbonneau, he comes down, he's wearing a team uniform. There's like 50, I think there were almost 60 cars trying to qualify for 30 places. Philip comes down, he's working with me for like hours on my car and checking everything over. And I thought, well, you're so nice, but like you work for this other team. Like, why are you down here? And he's like, oh, I'm just helping you out. And I was like, yeah, something's... I'm good. You have a job to do. And he's like, man, I can't do this. I got to level with you. He said, we had a little meeting when you pulled up, and everybody down there thinks you're going to kill yourself this weekend. So, they sent me down here, so I'm yours, because they just want to keep you from killing yourself. So that's how much I didn't belong. Well, we qualified, like 57th, started, I don't know, 24th in the last chance race. It was 10 laps. You had to finish top five or six. And now I see it's like, by the grace of God, all these things happen. We came off of turn four at the end of 10 laps and finished like fourth or something, made the race, got paid a thousand bucks. People went, wait a second, like who are you? And then it all started happening. And so, at that time, I had been working on Mike Mittler going to that shop, volunteering, doing all this stuff. My family risked everything. I went and ran this race. I ran one other race. It was all going really well, but I was, I was like 22 or 23. I was getting older. I knew in my heart that this could work. I put together a test session. 

Chris Powers: What's that? 

Carl Edwards: So, the team, the truck team, and if this is hard to follow, bear with me. There's a lot going on. The truck team I was helping was Mike Mittler's truck team. They were kind of a low budget truck team in the garage. They didn't have a budget to go test. To test, you have to rent a track, you have to buy tires, you have to do all these things. It costs a lot of money. They had a wonderful driver named Tony Roper, who had been in the Busch series. He had stepped down to the truck series. It was really a real blessing for the team that he was driving for them. He's a very professional driver. There's no way I was ever going to get in this truck. It wasn't going to happen. There was a local dirt track that paved the- They paved the track. And so, I went to the track and I said, hey, if I could get a bunch of media here, would you let me have the track for a day? And they're like, perfect. I went to Mittler and I said, hey, if I rent the track for the day, would you let me drive for like 30 minutes at the end of the day? And he's like, well, you don't have any money. I mean, you have a space heater in your car. And I said, I'll cover the track. And he said, of course. And then I went to local media and I said, hey, at about 4:30 on this day, this NASCAR team's going to give me, a local guy, this big opportunity. So I kind of worked this thing out. And I have the pictures to this day. At about 4:30, Tony Roper had done all of his testing. Mittler held up his end of the deal. He said, hey, Carl, you can drive a few laps. The local newspapers are all there. Tony was like, he let me use his helmet. He was helping me. And... he's like, I know you're stealing my job. That's what you're trying to do, and it's fine. I was you. I thought, man, what a great guy. I got to run about 10 laps. And that was the first time after all those years that I got to be in a car like that. I had never driven anything. I'd been chasing this dream, but I didn't even know if I could do it. And after a few laps, like it all clicked. I was like, I can do this. And it was the most amazing experience. Very tragically, about two weeks later at just up the road, Texas Motor Speedway, I was working on the pit crew like I did with that team, and Tony Roper got killed on the front straightaway. He got in an accident with another truck. And we lost Tony that day. And so, I'm leading up to that moment that you initially asked about. So, the team decided to continue racing. They said, Carl, you'll be the driver. And I was like, man, this is amazing. Everything I've ever worked for is going to actually begin. And we were supposed to start, I think it was the 2002 season. And then this one night at the shop, there was this long meeting going on. I thought, man, what the heck is Mittler doing? And I went in his office and there was another driver there, Larry Gunselman. And he said, Carl, I want to introduce you to our new driver, Larry Gunselman. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? And he said, well, Larry's going to drive for the year. He brought this sponsorship. And I realized right then my whole, my career had been set back a year at the best. But it was really over. And I remember it like it just happened. I went back and I sat in the machine shop. It was dark. And I thought, man, I have literally given everything. We've risked everything we've got. I don't really have anything. This is my only opportunity, and it's gone. And I just thought, man, I'm done. Like, I should go do all these other things normal people do. I should finish engineering school or be a dentist or I don't know what. I'm not interested in any of this stuff, but I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. And it was like the- It was like everything just died. And then some spark, it was like it just hit me, and I'm so grateful for it. It was that, hey, it's only a year. I've been doing this for however many years. And right then in that moment, I just said, screw it. I'm going to do this till the end. Like, I will not... And I got up and I thought, I can work for these people. I'm going to help Larry Gunselman. We're going to just- And I remember thinking, I'm done. I'm done thinking about another plan. I'm done even worrying if this happens. I'm literally going to blaze ahead, period. End of story. And about eight or nine months later, it just all worked out better than I could have imagined it. It's like I had more time to develop. I learned more. Larry turns out to be the greatest fabricator in the world. The truck that he was driving he helped make into the best truck. And when I got into it, we were just lightning fast... And that was how it all happened. 

Chris Powers: Were you driving during that eight or nine months? 

Carl Edwards: I was driving everything. I would go to the dirt tracks and just drive any car people would let me drive. And sorry, that's like 20 minutes straight. 

Chris Powers: It's amazing because it sets up a question like this... And I'm not asking you to brag on yourself. The sports that I know, to become like a professional golfer, you have been elite your whole junior. You go to like a top college. Like, you are on track, and I'm sure we've skipped spots, but it just kind of like, maybe you just haven't said enough. I was expecting the storyline of like I was winning every race there possibly was. Like, there was nothing that could take me down. Is there a little more to that? Or to become a great driver, like, it doesn't track like most sports. Like football, you play high school, you play four years of college, you win the Heisman, you go to the NFL. Like, the track is kind of there. It seems like in racing, there's maybe different ways to get there, maybe not. 

Carl Edwards: I don't know. I don't understand. The only story I have is my story. And I don't know how other people feel about how their careers go. I know some people- So I'll say this. You're bringing up all these things I haven't thought about for a long time. So I believed early on in this structured ladder of progression, and I thought, man, I'm screwed. Because I didn't start racing till I was almost 16 years old.

Chris Powers: And most of your peer set had started racing when they were kids? 

Carl Edwards: Oh, my gosh, yeah. And so I thought, man, I've got to make up for this. I'm screwed. Like, I have to win at this level, at this level, at this level. I subscribed to that and I realized that this math... There's not enough time. It's impossible. So I started to, in my mind, I lived by this idea that, if there's something that I want to do, then let's just go ahead and get to doing that. And I'm going to find out really quickly, if, A, I can, and if I'm just good enough to keep doing it, like if I can succeed enough that I get to keep trying, then I will become better. And so, I know this is probably like the wrong way to look at any sort of mastering of something. Like if tomorrow we got to fly the space shuttle, then let's just get to practicing in the damn space shuttle, because I can't- There wasn't enough time. And so, me... Todd Peterson and I talked about this the other day, and there was an NFL athlete in the room, and Todd said it perfectly. He said, Carl, do you feel like when you were in that race car doing the best you ever did in your career, did you feel like that was what God actually built you for? I said, yes, absolutely. I've always felt that way. It just felt perfect to me. He said, do you feel like if you'd have started when you were six and structured, would you have been any better? It's like, no, I don't. And so, for me, I just needed the opportunity to get into the thing and get moving. And I don't know if it's true, but it's what I believed. 

Chris Powers: Okay, anybody listening, if you want to know how Carl's NASCAR career did, you can go search that. I kind of want to now jump to the end of the career. We could arguably say at the peak of your career, you have this- Was the phone call a planned phone call? Was it serendipitous that this happened? 

Carl Edwards: So, okay, the thing I'm most excited to talk about here today is this, like the racing stuff, I know I went- I apologize for the long winded stuff, but there's a lot that happened. 

Chris Powers: This is what I'm most excited about. 

Carl Edwards: I believed... I don't remember who said it, but maybe it's John Marsh who said, like we take vows, or maybe it's Jeff Schulte, and we maybe don't know what they are. But I took a vow when I was a kid that was like, hey, I'm going to be somebody. And the way to do that is to win, to have your name in the paper and make money and people look up to you and be tough and succeed. And I like believed that. And all the stuff I just talked about with racing was like, it was an underlying fire, some people call it ambition, to succeed at this thing. And fast forward from age 15, 16 to age 35, I was sitting after my final race in 2016, which the season didn't end the way I wanted it to, but hey, that's just racing. And I was gearing up for the next season, and I was having this conversation with someone, and it was a very difficult conversation. It was very hard for me. And I was sitting there thinking, I was actually being judgmental in my mind, thinking, man, this is awful. And this person is causing me this pain and it was a really tough conversation. And it just struck me, if I'm really honest, I don't know my kids. They were six and seven years old or something like that, five or six. I keep thinking, oh, I'll get to that. I've done everything I wanted in racing and more. We just learned Dale Jr. and other guys had been really, really brave to talk about the head injury risks. I thought, man, I'm going to, I'm 36 years old, I'm going to bang my head five, ten times a year for however many more years I do this. And at the end, I'm going to be the person on the other end of this phone call, and it'll be someone like my son or my daughter or someone close to me sitting at this end. And I will have just been a- I will have ruined the most important things in my life. I just realized, man, objectively, I just- It's done. I'm done racing. And it was a... I had to talk to Kate about it. I thought, Kate, I'm losing my mind here, because this was not on the- this is not the plan. The plan was succeed, win, racing's first. And so that was the moment where it occurred to me that maybe that thing that I vowed to be wasn't- it's like people say, you climb the ladder and you realize I'm on the wrong ladder. And that was it. 

Chris Powers: I'm getting a little more detailed into this. Was that a serendipitous conversation, or was like, did you know that that conversation was going to happen? More where I'm headed with it is like, had you not had that conversation that day, could it have been at least another year before that realization came? Or were you on track to that realization already? 

Carl Edwards: No. And that's one of the- No one's ever asked me that question. I never thought of it this way, but I mean, everywhere I look now I see it. None of this stuff's an accident. None of these things that happened are- Like, that conversation at the time was awful, and I am so grateful for it. It's a true gift. If I didn't have it, if any little thing would have been different, if that final race of the season, if we'd have just, if we'd have won the race and won the championship, I mean, everything would be different. And, oh, my God, it's terrifying because now I see what I was actually doing and just... Yeah, I'm grateful for that conversation. 

Chris Powers: It took a week between that conversation and going to Joe Gibbs to tell him, which in your head, you process things like you were willing to come to grips with like I don't even know if this leads to financial ruin. Like, I have no idea what this leads to, but I'm doing it no matter what. To the extent you even remember, that's a pretty long seven days from like, I'm at the top of the NASCAR world, just had this conversation. I'm done. I'm going to probably spend seven days to make sure my feelings aren't just feelings. Is there anything you can recall from that seven days that kept you on track? 

Carl Edwards: Yeah, a couple things. I told Kate, I said, hey... like we had talked about, it was everything I had ever dreamed. I was living it. And I told Kate, I said, hey, I think, like I think I'm done racing. And she said, what do you...? She's like, okay. I said, but I need to- I have to go clear my mind somewhere. And so, I'm a pilot, so I said, I'm going to go, I love the ocean, so I'm going to go to somewhere and sit on a beach all by myself. And so, in my mind, being a redneck from central Missouri, I'm like, Key West, that'll be great. And I didn't know that there's no- like, I mean, I went to a hotel, and the beach is like 50ft wide. But nonetheless, I ended up sitting in a hammock in Key West for about as long as I could stand, which was about an afternoon. And I decided, oh, I've lost my mind. I was like, that was a good exercise. But I can do this. I can go back. I can be a better father. I can use every bit of spare time I have outside of the car and still give the 100% focus in the car. I can be extra careful. I'm a race car driver. This is what I'm going to go do. And so, I thought, okay, got that out of my system. I don't know what that was, some sort of delusional thing that hit me, the idea to quit. And it was wild. I got back in the plane, took off from Key West, made a beeline for home. And somewhere over, I don't know, it was probably like eastern Tennessee or something, I was like, man, it's a 90 degree corner to Charlotte, and if I was ever going to do this, I should- I'm going to have to go talk to coach. I was like- And it was like, it was a strange feeling that I was- I've had it a bunch in my life. Now I realize it's God. I didn't know what it was then. But it was like, hey, man, you know exactly the right thing to do. And you just either- You just got to do it. And so, I turned right, went to the shop, and unannounced. Coach was in there having some meeting with Kyle Busch about he's begging to drive the Indy 500 or some crazy thing. And he says, all right, Carl, what do you got? And I kind of laid it on him. I said, I'm done. I need to focus on other things. And I was ready for anything. And he stood up, and I thought he was mad, and he stuck out his hand, and he said, hey, I admire you for this and I back you up and I'm going to help you get it done. And I thought, I couldn't believe it. And so, Coach Gibbs, Toyota era, Subway, all these people, they actually like supported me through it and made it really simple. It was crazy. 

Chris Powers: So how long from that day until you were free, was it weeks, months? How long did it take to unwind everything? 

Carl Edwards: It was really quick. 

Chris Powers: You didn't go to college, did you? 

Carl Edwards: What's that? 

Chris Powers: You didn't go to college, did you? 

Carl Edwards: I did go to college. Yeah, I went to the University of Missouri. I enrolled there in engineering school at the beginning because I thought that would help me with racing, but I never got a degree. 

Chris Powers: The reason I asked is because like, when college ends, I remember thinking, like, I'm going to walk across stage and then like it'll take like another couple months of college unwinding for it to end. You literally walk across stage, you go to lunch with your family, and you were at your house with a U Haul packing up. Like, there is no- So was it kind of abrupt like that, or was it a slower burn to the last, quote unquote, final day? 

Carl Edwards: Okay, man. Good question. I would say in hindsight, it's shocking how abruptly you can change your life. And so, I think that's what you're getting at. It was like a light switch. And it was- The only real regret I have is that I didn't realize, I was terrified, really, because although I had this strong feeling and I really knew that what I was doing was correct, it went against my entire, like everything I had convinced myself was true up to that point, that vow I took. It was like I was- It didn't make sense to anyone around me, basically, except my closest friends. I was just terrified that I was making a mistake. And so, my regret was that I tried- There was only a few weeks later, Tom Jensen, a great reporter, he figured out what was going on, and he said, hey, look, you guys better have this press conference, or I'm going to break this story, which was kind of him. So, we gathered up, did a press conference. I stayed up the entire night before. I stayed at the Embassy Suites in Concord. I could not sleep. I went over and over what I was going to say. I was very scared to say that I was actually walking away for good because I thought I might be wrong. I was very scared to talk about my family because I'm a very private person and I didn't want to want this to turn into something that was all about my kids. I just really value their privacy. And then I was really nervous to talk about my fear of or my awareness, I should say, of like the head injury stuff because I figured people would think that I was injured, and so I would have like this inability to ever return. So, I tried to manipulate the messaging just enough to where I like had an out. And if I could go back, I would just, I mean, just be like a hundred percent, this is what I'm thinking, this is what, I don't know everything. But I felt like I had to control it, which was a huge weight. And so, I'll add that, yes, you can shut things off. My only advice to anyone, if you're going to make a life change like that, just be brutally honest. Don't- 

Chris Powers: Yeah, don't leave the door open. 

Carl Edwards: Don't try to leave the door open. That was a mistake. And it took me a long time to feel comfortable. I mean, still to this day, I mean, someone will listen to this and they'll be like, oh, yeah, the real reason- Because I tried to just control the narrative enough that I still had options, but there was no reason to do that. I should have just told everybody exactly what I was thinking at the time. 

Chris Powers: So, then you enter this period of... So the light switch turns off. Like, when did you wake up, and you're like, this is my new life? Was that in a matter of weeks? Like, what happened after then? Because now this might become a little bit of back and forth, not therapy, but you went through eight years of, is it fair to say, kind of re- Maybe it didn't take a full eight years, but you kind of went private. But you've admittedly, like in our conversations, as I am right now, having sold my company, a little insecure of like who the heck am I? 

Carl Edwards: Okay. So... yeah, I just basically disappeared. And my rationale was, look, I don't want to talk about this. And I don't even know how. And so, I just kind of just disappeared. And not like to my friends and family, but to the sport. I turned my back on the sport. And I realize now that was wrong. That was just me not being able to make this transition because it was just too hard for me to maintain my illusion of like I'm a race car driver, I've got it all under control, but then be really honest and say, hey, listen, I don't really know what this is- I don't know how to deal with all this. I’m probably not saying...

Chris Powers: Were they trying to get you back from the get go, or did they-? 

Carl Edwards: Well, yeah, I got a million really just humbling phone calls, all sorts of opportunities. But I knew in my heart what I wanted to be was a NASCAR champion. That was my mission for the last 15 years. I had tried my hardest. I'd gotten everything I wanted and more out of the sport, and I was done. And I knew that. And if I were going to go back, even to this day, I have this temptation to go back and like run the Daytona 500 or go do something. But I know it's not because I purely want to be the best. And so, I don't want to mess with it because I know what that feels like, to want to be the best at something. And it's the best. It's the greatest thing in the world. So yeah, so I walked away and a couple of things. It was very odd, like extremely. I wouldn't let- I didn't want the race on. I didn't want to read about it. I didn't want to see it on TV because it felt- it was hard for me to imagine that this thing was like going on without me and that it was very, I don't even know the words for it, but I just didn't like watching it. The part that was the hardest was walking into any room, like events we've been at, and people say, hey, what do you do? And I mean, I was so used to walking in and having everyone know exactly what I did. And I'm a big deal because I race cars on TV. And it was so easy to say, hey, yeah, well, we're getting ready to go to Texas or we're getting ready to go to Daytona. And these are the things I'm doing. Oh, you saw me on that commercial. It was like just constant, like filling me up with all this stuff, and to walk into a room and people would say, hey, so what do you do? And I was like, well, in my mind, I'm thinking what I really am doing is I'm trying to figure out how to be a husband and a father. I'm terrible at these things. I don't really know how to do it. I'm basically like treading water in life, trying to figure out what to do next. I didn't know how to say that. I was terrified. And it felt so- I felt so insecure. And I felt like that for a long time, and I mean, years. But if I'm really honest, I knew and I just knew it was the right thing for me to do. To me, it was important, but I didn't believe it was important to the world. So it felt almost humiliating in a way to have to have those conversations. 

Chris Powers: So, what would you tell people? Like, would you be like, I'm starting a school or flying planes? Would you just come up with something? 

Carl Edwards: Yeah, I still, to this day, people say, hey, what do you do? And I'm better at it now, but it's like, hey, we farm. We've got some rental property. I’m trying my hardest to be the best dad and father I can be. But I still have a hard time disconnecting myself from that worldly success. It would be real comfortable to say, hey, I'm doing this real important thing in business or racing or politics. It would be- I'm built naturally to find purpose in those things because other people think they're important. And I'm real good, and my whole life, I have been, I've just been good at, I guess I've liked that praise, that feeling. And so, it's hard. It's been really a heck of a journey to disconnect from that. 

Chris Powers: Was there- Maybe you would say, it's something I'll work on forever. Was there a moment where there was yet another shift in that thinking and you started becoming more- Was it a trip up to the mountain? Was it-? 

Carl Edwards: Oh, I could go on about this forever. 

Chris Powers: We got time. 

Carl Edwards: I am just realizing, and I'm still- I get it right about, I'd say I used to only see glimpses of it. You know those moments in life when you're cruising along and you feel like, man, I'm- Everything's going great. But then something happens. There's all these moments, we all have them, where you spend time with someone that you normally maybe would have written off, or some event happens or just some moment of wonder and beauty and miraculousness that you go, oh, that's what life's about. And it's like this... And I saw those moments through my life, but I always thought, oh, that's interesting, let me get back to work. And now I'm starting to see that that's actually it, that's the whole thing. And I know I'm privileged. I know that we've had success and that my kids are fed. But I'm starting to actually believe the truth, capital T truth, which is that the whole thing is a miracle, that it's not about the- it's not about the stuff that people brag about on Instagram. It's just about realizing you're forgiven, you're loved, and that if you accept that, you can give it to others. That's where it's at. And I just- The first moment I knew I had done the right thing was Kate and I laying in bed on some random morning, probably a week after I quit racing. And the phone is silent and I had nowhere to go. And I was in full panic, like I've screwed my whole life up. And I heard my son get up and he came running down the hall, and I told this, I think to Dale or somebody. And he runs down the hall, pitter patter, little feet. And he comes and jumps into the bed with us and he's like, good morning, dad. And Kate looked at me, and she said, this is what you've been missing. And because up to that moment, Mike would say hi to me, but he hugged Kate. He didn't- It was different. 

Chris Powers: You said Kate had mentioned this is what you've been missing. You felt that that day you were having that conversation that I don't know my kids. How did you plan on getting to know your kids again? 

Carl Edwards: I would say a very eye opening moment for me was my son and I, I've had this dream to take a boat all over the world. So, I want to go boating. I didn't see the ocean until I was 20 something. So, we decided to buy this boat, and it was over in Europe. And Mike and I... 

Chris Powers: Just to be clear, that's weird in and of itself. 

Carl Edwards: Why is that? 

Chris Powers: Just buying a boat in Europe. 

Carl Edwards: Yeah, well, I was pretty dead set on getting a boat. So we went, Annie and I went over there and looked at it, and then we bought the boat. I know nothing about boats. And so, we hired these two guys. They're great. They’ve become great friends. I had no clue that they were full on like vagabond pirates at the time. I'm thinking these guys are professional sailors. And they know... because I used them, I asked them, should I bring my son, he's 6 years old, and should he go on this trip because we had to bring the boat back across the Atlantic. And they said, oh, of course, Mr. And Mrs. Edwards, in our experience, it’s a wonderful education for a child and all this. So Kate agreed to let Mike go across the ocean. I get over there. And I realized, like Mike got, he got the biggest lesson in like rolling cigarettes and doing all- he's a sailor. He's hanging out with sailors. Well, the point is, the first thing that happened is we got over there and I've committed to spending time with my son. And the first day, we'd been flying for 30 something hours. I thought, man, I got to go out on the dock and do like a little workout or something, do some push ups or some burpees or something. And I dropped my phone immediately. And of course, Mike's hanging around next to me like he has been for the last month or two. And the phone went in the water, and he said, oh, this is great. And I thought, why would you say that? He said, well, now you'll spend time with me. I was like, okay, noted. I'm not focusing on this young man. And I would say, for me, we could ask Mike, but I think that that month that we spent together was the start of just me actually treating him with the respect and the attention that I should have been. 

Chris Powers: So, the throughline of some of this story is that there's these critical moments in your life that you've like responded to. It's almost like, it's like everything comes into focus at once. So, I was talking to our friend Brent. What should I talk to Carl about? And he said, well, you should ask him about Cloud Camp and how that was maybe a transformative moment. One, when he told me you went, I said, well, what about Cloud Camp? He goes, well, you realize when Carl went, I don't really think he had a relationship with the Lord. And if anybody who hasn't been to Cloud Camp, that's not typically the first place you... 

Carl Edwards: So, to sum this whole thing up, from the beginning of our conversation, really the beginning of my whole pursuit, I'll just call my whole, like the whole thing, just a pursuit, I was like a rocket with no fins. Just like, I mean, I’d like go that way, go that way. But I could feel that, obviously I stopped racing, I was trying to figure out how to be a father, trying to figure out what the hell is going on. I've read everything I could about evolutionary psychology, cosmology, physics, and I've always been very curious, but nothing, nothing took care of the whole picture. There was no meta framework. So, I don't know, six or seven years into this wild adventure called like quitting your job and trying to figure out what life's about, I run into this guy Brent. And I was going to Jiu Jitsu a lot, which was great. This guy, Justin Dyer, turns out to be just one of the most brilliant people of our time. And he says, hey, I've got this book club and do you want to join? So, it's me, Justin, Brent, and a pastor, a Young Life Pastor Luke Neal. And so, after one of our arguments where I'm trying to explain evolutionary psychology to these guys, and Brent's like, okay, okay. Brent says, hey, I want to invite you to this thing, just random, like, hey, there's this thing going on in Colorado. I think you should go. He said, we've got one seat. You're my first round draft pick. And I thought, one seat. And so, I'm kind of like a yes guy. If somebody says, hey, I've got- I just try to go. And so, I go all the way to Colorado, go up the top of this mountain. And the first person that spoke was John Marsh. And John told me his story, and it changed the- It immediately changed the entire way I saw marriage. I had never thought of marriage the way John did, the way he explained it. I thought of it the way he describes it when he got married. It's like, hey, like it's something for me. Like, I got a beautiful wife, she does things for me. And he kind of hit me with a figurative two by four there and changed the way I saw it. So that was super impactful. I've only been up there for a couple hours. We break for dinner, and it was like Dupree and Lusk and Stephen Garber, who I have no clue who these people are. And they start walking me over to the dinner table, and one of them, I think it was Dupree said, so, Carl, tell us about your walk with the Lord. And I was like, dang it, they're all Christians. I didn't put it together. And I was like, oh, man, this is- I've struggled with this because I thought of Christianity my whole life as something that like less intelligent people told themselves just because it made them feel good, it's some sort of way you work your way to heaven or something. I just didn't take it seriously. And so, I kind of negotiated with myself. I'm like, well, I could lie and just say, oh, it's fine, or I could actually tell them the truth. I was like, they're nice people. Screw it. I'll just tell them the truth. I mean, maybe they'll throw me down off the mountain. And so, I said, hey, I don't have one. And I could tell, it was like the music stopped, and now I know that I was like the only non-believer. And they had to have a meeting, whether I could go. And those guys sat with me and talked to me and Socratically, Stephen Garber in particular, asked me questions about my life. He said, I mean, you know how he does it. He says, tell me about your life, Carl. I had no clue that he's just a brilliant theologian, philosopher, greatest man to walk the earth. And I'm thinking, this guy's really amazing. And we got done talking, and it was maybe 45 minutes, and I told him about all these miraculous things that happened in my life. And I just- And he said, Carl, are those things real or not? And I said, yeah, they're real. He said, so you see these, science and matter, and those are real, but these miracles that you have seen, he said, those are real too, right? I said, yeah. And he said, Carl, I don't know you. He said, but if you don't see God has been right next to you your whole life, you're the most blind person I've ever met. And it was- I used the words, I didn't know these were biblical words, but it was like a veil. They didn't tell me anything new. They just helped me to see through that lens, the lens of spirituality, of the miracle that is life. And I thought, that's it. That's God. This wonder that I have for the universe, this unexplainable existence in itself, all these miraculous things, some entity that answers my prayers my whole life, that's God? And they said, yes, that's- And so they showed me that, and it changed my life in a way that I can't even- It makes all the rest of the stuff feel like getting to the starting line. 

Chris Powers: We talked about it a little bit earlier, but in a similar note, John Marsh, I met John on a- I was introduced to him by somebody and I was going to do a podcast with him, and I had been introduced to him as developer John, this great real estate developer from Opelika. I had a business podcast, and I was at probably the darkest moment of my life, but I could also, I could hide that just as well as we all can. 

Carl Edwards: Isn't it amazing how we can hide that stuff?

Chris Powers: And we get good at it. And you've said something quite a bit about like feel, like you can feel it. So much of what you said today, I think we're very much alike in super mission driven, but having this inner monologue when you just know something's off, but you can't quite explain it. So, I get on this call with him, and John does what he does best. I ask him, how are you doing? Tell me about yourself. I just expect him to start telling me about how many square feet he owns and how much NOI he's making. And he tells me his entire life story and testimony. And in that moment, it's like, it's similar to you, something shifted in me that's never shifted back. And he then asked me, like tell me about you. And I think in that moment, I think it was one of... like, your moment of like veering off to tell Joe Gibbs. I could have probably just been like, I'm good. I'll see you at the podcast in two days. I tell him what I'm going through. And he was like, would you get on- Would you and your wife get on a call with me and my wife tomorrow? So this would have been him taking a Friday night off. So just even there, I'm like, this guy's going to take a Friday night off to talk to two strangers across the country. 

Carl Edwards: That's who he is. 

Chris Powers: Two weeks later, we're down in Opelika hanging out with them. And it changed my life forever. I mean, that was one of those shifts that you never really bounce back from. And it started with a bunch of God shows himself through like unbelievable  vulnerability and testimony. And did you ever feel like alone? Like, I felt alone a lot. 

Carl Edwards: I felt, I have felt alone my whole life. And I'll never forget, it was Matt Chandler that said, and nobody had ever said- he said, this is the room, all you guys got thrown in the deep end with the sharks and you survived. I thought, man, I never thought of it that way. I have always felt that I was on my own. I had to do it myself. I'm a total asshole to people around me because I'm worse to myself. And... I'm like, doesn't everybody just like rip themselves apart and strive and fight and ridicule like all the time to drive themselves forward? And Marsh is the first person who, him, Garber, you guys, all of you have like freed me from that prison. I still go back in every once in a while. 

Chris Powers: It's comfortable. It's like a safe spot almost in a weird, sick way. 

Carl Edwards: Exactly. But it is it- And I don't know how to put this well enough because I know there's people who will watch this and listen to it and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Now I get it. Now I don't- I'm not living it the best I can. I'm working on it. But I get it that there is an entire- There's like a total different dimension to life. It's the upside down world. It is not- Most of this crap is lies. It's not true. And every single time I told myself or people around me that they weren't good enough, it's all bullshit. And it's so- But like, I didn't even have a framework to think like that. And so, yes, John Marsh being vulnerable, I mean, he changed everything. To tell you how impactful John Marsh has been to my life is that we gave him a ride home from Cloud Camp. You've heard the story? 

Chris Powers: Well, you tell it. It's funny because John, I talk to John every Friday morning at 8, and I bet you at least three or four times a year he talks about that flight home. 

Carl Edwards: Well, so we had a great flight. We left Colorado. I love flying people in the airplane. We took Marsh and Brother E and Ty.

Chris Powers: And he sat up front with you? 

Carl Edwards: Well, the first part of the trip, I can't remember who sat up front. It was probably my son. My family was in the plane. And so, Marsh sits in the back, and I can't wait to talk to him. But I'm going to drop everybody off in central Missouri and then I'm going to take them to Opelika. And I can't wait to talk to Marsh. So I'm thinking this flight is about me and Marsh. This is going to be great. And we did. We had the most beautiful- Dropped off the family. I'm like, okay, now I get time with Marsh. It was an amazing trip. It was great. Found out two weeks later the whole reason for that flight was not what I expected. My daughter, just out of the blue, says, hey, mom and dad, I want to talk to you about something. She said, I think I'm going to get married someday. I was like, okay. I mean, of course, you're going to get married. Like, what is the conversation? And she said, no, remember we were taking that flight a couple weeks ago, and that one guy in the plane, he talks funny. He's got like the stylish glasses. And I was like, yeah, John Marsh. She said, yeah, yeah, that guy. She said, I had decided that, like after everything I saw between you two, that I'm not- I was just not going to get married ever. But I listened to him and do you know, for about an hour and a half, dad, that all he did was talk about how much he loves his wife. I didn't know that men could love their wives like that. And I think I want to be part of a marriage like that. So, I was like, damn. So, I'm really screwed up. And that man is doing something right. And so, what a gift, from Brent, you guys, Garber, all the way to the time now that I've been fortunate enough to spend with John Marsh to try to help me see the proper way to love my wife. Now, I'm not- I'm literally terrible at it. But at least we know now like when I'm off track and we can get back on it. 

Chris Powers: It's unexplainable how a bunch of knuckleheads like us have all kind of found each other. You got this real estate developer in Opelika. Todd Peterson's an incredible man in my life. And it's what you said. It is all bullshit. Like, to me, one thing people would accuse me of is the expectations I hold the people around me to which are basically unachievable. But it's always felt so natural because, again, the inner monologue is, I've always- I have never achieved my own expectations because if I ever get there, I move the goal line a little bit further. And I thought that's how you live life. 

Carl Edwards: Yes. And it is how it works. It works if you care about literally how much money you make, what people think of you, what you appear to be, hell yes. Let's get it on. I mean, I can grind that out and so can you. If I could go back and talk to myself 30 years ago, I guarantee you, I wouldn't be sitting here. I would have never probably made it in racing. But I'd have been a lot happier, and I would have helped a lot more people, and I would have done a lot less damage. 

Chris Powers: And then you think about Jesus and you're like, in any other sense, if you didn't know the story and you didn't know Jesus, you think, king, conquer, top of mountain, rides in on a blazing chariot, and we worship a king that took the absolute lowest position you could possibly take. And ironically, that is the most attractive thing you find in anybody. 

Carl Edwards: Yeah. I had no clue. And that's what, I just read Paul Kingsnorth's book, Against the Machine, and he laid out in about two pages the story of Jesus. It was spectacular. And he said, God did not send some king, some soldier, some commander, he sent a very humble servant. 

Chris Powers: So, you're, is it fair to say, I don't know if the word's reemerging, but you've maybe started to find your footing again in some ways. Like, what is all this leading to? And maybe we start there by saying you were inducted into the Hall of Fame. From a I turned my back on you, and now you're accepting me, what did that feel like to you? 

Carl Edwards: Okay, so the Hall of Fame showed me two giant errors in my whole framework for life. One, that achievement was like a mechanical thing... that it's about like actual winning, no failures. I hold my failures like true damage that like doesn't heal. And it's really, that has been hard for me. And then the second thing is that I didn't realize that people are forgiving and kind and like the sport welcomed me back after me walking away and doing all this, and they're truly my family. You can go through hard things with people, coworkers, family, whatever, but in the end, we're all in this together. And that Hall of Fame brought that home for me in a way that I just I can't really describe. It was a very big deal to me. But you said something that I think is really important to address. I walked away, and I really, in a way, I hid because I just wasn't secure in myself. I wasn't open to judgment of failure for all those same reasons like that we talked about, where we just- It had to be clear to me. I didn't want to have any opportunity to be wrong. And so, I kind of hid. About three or four years after I stopped racing, I never could have imagined sitting here and just talking like this. I wanted to... I had like an image or something that was weird. I just couldn't be vulnerable. And so, in a way, them inviting me back, me meeting you guys, understanding that it's not about me, the whole thing, this is not... This is like, it's all a gift. And whatever I've learned, I should share, and whatever vulnerable thing I can contribute, I should. That was like a turning point for me. And I just- I know that's a lot of word salad, but I guess it's just I feel free now in a way that I just never have in my life. 

Chris Powers: Did they reach out to you? Like, did you know it was coming? Or like did you know you were up on the docket for Hall of Fame? 

Carl Edwards: So, yeah, I knew that I'd been nominated for the Hall of Fame, but most of my career, I didn't even think about the Hall of Fame. I thought, whatever, I'm here to win races and that'll take care of itself. When I quit racing, I realized, oh, I'll never do this again. That was really nice of them to nominate me for the Hall of Fame, but that's not me. I mean, that's... obviously I didn't do well enough for that. And so, when it happened, coincidentally, I was coming back from Opelika, visiting John and Ash, and we landed and my wife said, you better check your phone. And they had told me that morning they were going to do the vote. I didn't even- They said, be by your phone at 4pm. I was like, whatever. I'm not- I mean, there's no way. And so it's a really special moment. And just as God does, it was perfectly timed for me to be able to go back and be at a position and have a viewpoint to really tell everyone how much I appreciate them. And in the end, that's what it was really about. I realized as I got to stand up there and thank people and tell people how much it meant to me. That was cool. 

Chris Powers: Did you practice that? Because I've watched it two or three times. Really good public speaker. I mean, it was very well done. Were you nervous? 

Carl Edwards: I was extremely nervous. 

Chris Powers: Had you practiced?

Carl Edwards: I had practiced. 

Chris Powers: Did you have a coach? 

Carl Edwards: I actually went over to Brent's house and we set up in his daughter's like playroom and I was like, Brent, how does this sound? And he really helped me. I think...

Chris Powers: It was so awesome. 

Carl Edwards: I appreciate that. I just, I knew what I wanted to say, and I was very, very fortunate to get to say it. I think of how many people go through life and they learn all these lessons, and they don't get a chance to tell people how much they mean to them. And I haven't watched it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. But it felt good to say the things I said. 

Chris Powers: I teared up like five times. You made it through without crying. 

Carl Edwards: Yeah, I cried in the practice. 

Chris Powers: I was going to say, you got it all out.

Carl Edwards: And they told me you couldn't do that. They're like, you can't be up there crying because I lost it. Yeah. That was just an amazing opportunity. I don't even know how to put that into words. 

Chris Powers: So you're in DFW now because Mike's racing, your son. Life kind of comes at you full circle. You're, I think, starting to work again in the sport in some capacity. How, if we sat here, what's happening? 

Carl Edwards: Oh, so that's what I wanted to say. That's what struck me, is that yes, I'm back. So, the Hall of Fame was amazing. I mean, they invited me back for that. Then Amazon Prime has five races, so I got to go broadcast that. 

Chris Powers: Was that cool? 

Carl Edwards: Yeah, it was really cool. It was the same thing. I was terrified. I was like, how are people going to receive me? My perfectionist mindset was like, look, I've been out of it for too long. I'm going to be awful. It's terrible. You know all that stuff you do. But the big lesson is like, hey, we're all imperfect. Like, none of this stuff makes sense. Like, when there's an opportunity, go do it. Go have fun. Like help people out. Maybe the whole reason that you're there has nothing to do with you. And so, that's kind of been my MO lately. It's been so wonderful. I feel like that 19 year old kid again, just driving race cars because I love it. And now I'm getting the opportunity to just be around the sport because I'm enjoying sharing my story with people. I can see now so many people in the sport that are right where I was 10, 15 years ago. But yeah, the full circle is my son has decided to be a race car driver. And, man, we fought so hard to keep him from doing this, but we're here in Dallas and he's racing in the Toyota GR cup series, which is a really cool series. And yeah, that's what we're doing. But he loves it just like I loved it and I just- We had a lot of talks, Kate and I, about it, and so we're going to move forward here. 

Chris Powers: Well, Carl, I really appreciate you coming over today and chatting. It's been awesome. And like I told you before this, I feel like we could spend a couple days together. Just preparing for this conversation was a joy. It was a joy to hear it. And, yeah, I'm just very thankful you're in my life. 

Carl Edwards: Thank you, man. Thanks for all you've done for me and what you continue to do for others. And it's been cool to be alongside you in a way and just watch you just try to be such a wonderful husband and just a great friend. 

Chris Powers: Thanks, Carl.