#396 - Jason Illian - Co-Founder @ Highmount Capital - Eternal Thinking

Chris Powers: Everything good at home for you? 

Jason Illian: Yeah, we're at the crazy season. Like two high schoolers, one in middle school, two that are in the midst of like playing high end sports thinking they're going to play in college. So, you got the high school stuff going on and the college recruiting stuff going on and work stuff and ministry. And like last night, I had to travel down here kind of last minute for some meetings. And as we're talking over the weekend, Alicia's like, we have 30 people, 35 people coming to our house Monday night. You're not going to be here? Like, oh, we do? Which is a blessing that like we want to open our home to like the full volleyball teams that are coming over, but we got our wires crossed on which day that was. And so it's that kind of stuff where, blessed, I'm totally grateful that we're ministering that way and we get that opportunity. But it's also, when you- I find, because I'm not quite in that same stage or season where you are, it's like when I am running, I've got to run really hard and intentionally and then slam on the brakes when it comes back to the family. Like I got to turn it off so I can focus, because if not, I'll just run right through the family, continuing the work stuff. 

Chris Powers: How does something like a ministry at the house or having the whole volleyball team over, like how does that even begin or come about? 

Jason Illian: Yeah, I mean, we always kind of just take ministry as part of our daily life. It's the Deuteronomy 6. When you're in the home or along the road, when you go to bed and get up, wherever you are, you're ministering to people. So at the end of the day, a lot of people put sports as kind of the idol in their life. And we've tried, however imperfectly at times, but to tell our kids that sports are just a vehicle. It's a vehicle for being excellent and telling people about Christ and making sure our purpose is set. And there'll be games we win, and that'll be awesome. And there'll be things that we lose, and that's a chance to be an example of like, this doesn't rule and dominate me. And so we really like using sports as a vehicle to be a ministry. And at the end of the day, it's not a sit down, okay, everybody open your Bibles and here we go. But it's like, hey, welcome to our home. We're going to take care of you. We're going to ask you meaningful questions. We hope that when you leave here, you feel like a burden has been lifted. And somewhere along the way, we got to talk about Christ too, depending on the situation. And so, we try to do that everywhere we can. But we have to be intentional about it or it just becomes come over and eat pizza. 

Chris Powers: Has it always been that way, or was there like an inflection point where that started? 

Jason Illian: I would say we have always been intentional about doing it. Now, have we always done it well? No, I don't think so. I think as our kids have gotten older, it's been easier to be a little bit more intentional because when they're young, you're kind of like, did somebody's kid fall down the stairs? Who's got an eye on that kid? You're really distracted. But as they've gotten older and your kids can start thinking that way too, you can have meaningful conversations. But I think it's a mindset, like on the weekends we try to reset and say, hey, what's going on this week? How are we going to handle these conversations, these meetings, these games. And even before my son plays a football game every week, I send him a video and just remind him I'm proud of you. God's got this. I don't care if we win by 49 or lose by 49, if you throw for 500 yards or get sacked 14 times. God's got a plan for this. So go play freely. And you've got to instill that in your kids if you want your kids to instill that in their friends around them. 

Chris Powers: When you talk about being intentional over the weekend, having those conversations, they're what, they're teenagers now? 

Jason Illian: Yes. And my oldest Reign, he's 17, Sage is 15 and Rogue is 13. So junior, sophomore, seventh grade. 

Chris Powers: And how do they participate in that conversation? 

Jason Illian: I've been incredibly blessed because they all have a strong grasp of scripture already. They're all believers. And so, I would say that if they were sitting here right now, they would tell you they know how they should be acting and how they should be leading. Now, everybody's gifted a little bit differently in terms of how vocal they are and how outgoing. My two youngest, Sage and Rogue, they are naturally outgoing. If Rogue was in here, he'd be running the podcast. I'd be answering questions. My oldest is a quiet leader. He has to work harder to be vocal about his faith. And so, you can see at times he has to like think through, and he'll even tell you like, hey, after I go to practice and have a whole week, I'm exhausted. I need to like go to my room and not talk to you guys for a few minutes because the introvert side, the way God made him, he just needs some downtime. My youngest, man, he'll go lead a practice, walk in, keep talking the entire time. And so God makes them differently, and we have to realize that about them. 

Chris Powers: Okay, so this is interesting. So your oldest son, and I might botch this a little, we'll brag on him a little bit, he's maybe number one QB in Kansas right now as a junior. So he's probably being recruited a ton. 

Jason Illian: He's doing okay. 

Chris Powers: How is that... How are you kind of parenting him through that where the world is saying you're awesome, you're going to get all these offers? And he continues to show up, crush it week after week, but also kind of keep, like you said, kind of a silent leadership about it. 

Jason Illian: Yeah. So I guess the first way to say is we don't do this perfectly by any stretch, intentionally, but not perfectly. And so we always have to start with scripture. And this starts with myself. Like if I'm not in scripture myself, I have nothing to give to my son. And so, I know each and every day I've got to be in the word, listening to podcasts, having conversations like this, being reminded myself of my purpose of prophet, priest, king, and then... 

Chris Powers: Can you break that down? 

Jason Illian: Yeah. Prophet, priest, and king. So there are kind of three different ways when they talk about Melchizedek in the Old Testament coming to Abraham. He's both a prophet, priest, and a king. And there are also three aspects of what men are being called to do. The prophet side is the one that's speaking truth. We're called to go out there and speak truth in all aspects of our lives. Prophets aren't always liked, the Charlie Kirk's of the world, because as you speak truth, people are going to like you or hate you, but they're really consistent about we're out there speaking truth and we're speaking from the truth, which is the word of God. Priests are the ones that are leading and speaking for their people. They're often known to be merciful and kind and hurting people gather around priests because they show great amounts of mercy. And then there's the king, and the king's aspect is to make sure that people are moving the right direction. They're on purpose. They're intentional. They're focused on the Lord. And we all have different pieces of that in us. We all have different strengths too. So if you find yourself where you're all about speaking the truth, people may or may not like you, but it comes naturally. Some people are like, well, I'm strong in the prophet. Priests are like mercy and understanding and listening. And some people are like, I'm really good at that. I have friends that all my friends just gather to them naturally. That's not my overstrength. Like I have to work on my mercy. I'm more of like take the hill and don't care about the body count as my wife would tell me. My wife's like, you gotta worry about the bodies. I'm like, oh, okay. So the priest side, I gotta work on the priest side. Got it. And then there's the king, and kings are typically CEOs, CFOs. They're building things or growing things. They have entrepreneurial spirit. And so, we talk about this with our kids of like, hey, we're called to be all of those things. And it is so easy, especially in the social media world, to get distracted by like, well, you're awesome. And Missouri called or Vandy called or TCU called or whatever. And at the end of the day, like I don't like the explanation or even the description when they say you're a Christian athlete because then you're saying the athlete's the noun and the Christian describes the athlete. I'm more of a Christian who happens to play sports. And so, we have to reset that for our kids. Our kids wrestle with it. Because it's real everyday stuff. And I would say there's certain days I'm so grateful for him, like after one of his best games this year, one of his buddies got hurt. And he didn't even know at the time he had eight touchdowns that game. After the game, the first thing he says is like, is Jack okay? And then he grabbed a bunch of guys and went and prayed on the field with them. And I was like, okay, I have lots of failures, but that is a win. And that's the type of leader I want to have. And there's also certain days he gets out of bed and I can tell football is the only thing on his mind. And I'm like, okay, I'm not leading well yet. And so, it's something, it's a constant daily battle, which draws us closer to the Lord. Because we need to be there every day to have the strength to lead well. 

Chris Powers: And so, kids sports has become huge. Sports in general has become huge. And we'll talk about Dude Perfect and what's going on there. But as you're talking to him, and it doesn't matter that now that he's a junior about to go on and have a college career, how do you talk to him about how to make this decision? Because there's going to be a lot of great opportunities. Like, how do you hope he makes the decision, but ultimately him being able to make the decision? 

Jason Illian: Yeah. So obviously, I'm a TCU grad, so I love my alma mater. 

Chris Powers: We could use him. 

Jason Illian: We could. It'd be nice this year. But what I often tell him is like, I don't really care the logo that's on your shirt. I don't. And I don't care how great the top 25 team may be. I said, I'm not looking for NIL. I don't care about the NIL. I really don't care about how awesome they are in the national rankings. I'm looking for what is the leadership? What's the coaching on that team? And what's the culture on that team? And I don't care if that's UCLA or Stanford or TC or Bob's garage, like the team that has that kind of hopefully godly leadership that is helping him become a man on and off the field, that's the place I want him to go. And so we have lots of conversations about what does that look like. And as we're talking to schools and talking to coaches, I often say like, well, what'd you learn from him? Like when that coach was talking to you about your throw, what was he talking about the sport side of things? Like, can you learn and be better at your craft? And then also, do you see yourself becoming a better man? And one of the things I give like Coach Fran and Coach Patterson a lot of credit when I was at TCU is Fran had this one saying, he goes, we're not the men we want to be, but at least we're not the men we used to be. And it was about every day we're going to get up step by step, play by play, person by person, we're going to get better. And I love that concept of slowly, intentionally, purposefully continuing to grow as men. And that's what I want for my son. That's what I want for my daughter, too, as she thinks about playing in college. You may get a really amazing offer from the outside, but is that the right offer? And I think we can talk about this in business. How many times have you went after the shiny thing, and then after you got the shiny thing, you spent the next two years trying to unwind the shiny thing because it had this nice- It looked nice on the outside, but man, it was just a nightmare to try to navigate. 

Chris Powers: And almost in all those situations, maybe not every time, maybe it's wisdom as you get older, you kind of know when you're making the decision, even if it's a tiny inkling in your gut, it's not the right decision. 

Jason Illian: Well, the inkling. Like this is important because I didn't- We all have to learn this, but that inkling, that's the Holy Spirit that's nudging you and saying, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, that looks really sexy. That looks really beautiful. That looks like, hey, you should go after that. It's really the Holy Spirit. It's God saying, listen, stop, reflect here. This may or may not be the best situation for you to be in. And I think as we get older, we've had enough scars because we've seen it. And so I always tell my kids, if you're a believer, if you're a follower of Christ, that is not some gut feeling. That's the Holy Spirit reminding you, and the Lord's trying to guide you through that. I've never audibly heard the Lord speak to me, but I have felt that pull of like, hey, you should say something here. You should do something. Or, hey, don't do that. No matter what you do, don't do that. And you know it's the Lord, especially when it's something you don't want to do. When you're like, no, but I want to do that. And then all of a sudden, you're not. I mean, when I left Koch and was thinking about, do we move back to Dallas? I wanted to move back to Dallas. I love it down here. I'd love to be able to hang with you more and hang with my friends. And I prayed about it with my wife, and I felt a sense of peace that like, I have you in Kansas right now. This is where I want you and need you. And I love Wichita. It's not that I dislike it. But I just had a real sense that this is not the time. Would it come again? Maybe. But at the time, he's like, you're here. And every time I listen to that, life goes well. There's a sense of peace, that's not perfect. It's not that everything just falls in front of me. But I feel like I'm on purpose and things are moving the direction that they're called to go. 

Chris Powers: Is there another example, you mentioned Kansas, maybe related to business where you can recall like this was the shiny object but this was the answer?

Jason Illian: Yeah, I mean, so when I'd left Koch Industries and before we started our own firm, we spoke to a number of other firms about joining them or building something else. And a couple of them were pretty incredible opportunities, making more money than I'd ever make with brand names that everybody knows. And one of the guys called and was running a multi, multi-billion dollar fund. He's like, you should come run this for me. And it sounded great. But the more I thought and prayed about it with my wife, it was going to cost me a lot of time with my kids. It was going to cost me some travel, both national and international. And while people would have said, well, yeah, you're going to look awesome on Twitter, and you're going to have a great bio, the cost was too great. And I think when I was younger, I may have just taken it and said, I'll figure that out. But what would that have cost me five years of my life, ten years of my life? And I think as we've gotten older and wiser, I felt led of like, hey, we should be building our own firm with our own first principles and our own biblical foundation. Which if we had not done that, we wouldn't have done Dude Perfect and these other companies we're working on. We would have missed all of that. 

Chris Powers: So how do you think about this? Because you didn't take that decision, but somebody probably did. They went to run the fund. And we can't sit here and say, well, they were wrong in doing that. 

Jason Illian: No, not necessarily. 

Chris Powers: How do you tie that back to what's right for you might not be right for the next person, or there's not just one answer, it's how God speaks into your life, given the lot that you've been given?

Jason Illian: Yeah. So I think there's a couple of things we have to kind of lay as foundation first. It's a biblical worldview and first principles thinking. So what is the first lens that you look at your life through? If the first lens, in my opinion, is not biblical, then it's something else. It's economic. It's success. It's you name it. But everybody has a lens that they look through first. Some people, it's political. So I happen to believe that you have to have a biblical, a truth lens to look through first. So if you're looking through that lens first, then you can look at your job or your opportunities in front of you. So that may have a different outcome based on where you are in life and the gifts God's given you. So, somebody that doesn't have three kids that are highly involved in sports and I'm still trying to mentor them, they may be able to jump on a plane and travel around the world and take their wife with them and use that as an opportunity to see the world and be at that stage of life. But for me, that's not. I also have to understand my gift set. What am I best at? And when you're young, I used to think, oh, I'm good at all these things. As I've gotten older, I'm like, I'm good at this very small slice, and I'm not even great at that slice. And so, you start to realize I have some God-given gifts, or other people would say, you have some capabilities and that capability set when you're honest with what you're good at, then you can work with people around you that are better at all these other areas. And that's actually the joy of life that I get when I have friends like yourself and other ones that have gifts that are just so much better than mine in different areas. Like, I'm just going to hang with Chris, like he's really good at this, and I can be behind him and learn. And then when there's something that needs my gifts, I can use my gifts in that area. And I think that's really what the body of Christ is called to be. Like if you have hands, don't try to be the feet. If you're the feet, don't try to be the head. And so God's calling us to say, hey, know what you are and know when you're supposed to use those gifts. So yeah, there could be a godly man in that role right now that is doing awesome. Or it could be somebody that's chasing money and fame and fortune and didn't even look through a biblical foundational lens to start his thinking. 

Chris Powers: Okay, we'll go back because you have a unique lens of the world. So, I should know this, what episode, but if you go back maybe 20 or so episodes, Jason and I did a whole episode on your investment in Dude Perfect. Dude Perfect is family-oriented media. And they're leading the charge. And we can go into that a little bit. But the Gen Z, the younger generation is the most faithful generation they're saying right now on the planet. They've been through a lot growing up. And so, then you talked about how your kids are going to pick a place to go play. So I thought maybe you could share maybe some insights, I don't know if it's data, like how are our young teenagers and the young people right now viewing the world? There's been a lot that's happened even in the last year, which we can touch on, but you're seeing the data come in. Like what is the world craving right now and what are young people thinking right now? 

Jason Illian: So, there's a couple of things we have to think about. One is like what are they being led to? And then what is the method in which they're being led there? So too many young men specifically, so let's talk about young men, but it affects women as well, are often measured by the ball field, the bedroom, and the billfold. Three Bs. Are you good on the field? Are you good in the bedroom? And you make a ton of money. And that is the framework that they've been given. Now, the Charlie Kirk incident and a number of the other things have kind of shaken people for the first time and kind of woke them up to like, hey, is that really the right way to go? Which is a huge blessing, that we're now all, young ones are for the first time saying that's not the way to go. And us older dogs are also waking up and saying, hey, are we on purpose as much as we should be? And so that's the way that the world wants us to think because it keeps us distracted and, quote unquote, by their mind, successful and in the limelight, but it distracts us from being the type of men and women we need to be. So, that's kind of where they have been led, and they've been led that way through a technology that's new to us, meaning like when we grew up, we didn't even have cell phones. But today, like the teenagers don't turn on the TV for the most part. Now, they may turn it on if it's a Netflix or even YouTube. But if you look at the growth of YouTube and Netflix and Instagram and Snapchat, the next generation catches things in clips. And so, at the end of the day, if you capture their attention, you can capture their hearts. And they've been, in a lot of ways, their attention's captured. And if you're a parent, you should just look at the screen time on your kid's phone. And most parents I talk to are talking that their kid's screen time is somewhere between like four and eight hours a day. Four to eight hours a day that they're on that phone. You can't tell me that's because they're studying algebra. And it's not four hours of Bible study either. And listen, we struggle with this too, where you can just go in, if you're not careful, you can go in and see your son or daughter just flipping through Instagram, just watching reel after reel. Or even I've seen how distracted they can be on Snapchat. That thing just pings constantly. And so, there is this technology, which technology itself is neither good nor bad, but it can be used for bad when it's that distracting from the world. And I think we've seen a lot in this society of like we've been incredibly distracted. And so, we have to reset where they're going and then use the methods that they have to help them get there. So just like you can be pinged for Snapchat, you can be pinged to Bible study, or you can be pinged by people that love you, or whatever, that help you reformulate your day. But we have to have to work at that. And that's why you're seeing Texas schools, as an example, bring phones out of schools. No more phones during the day. And you're seeing parents do a better job of saying, hey, we're going to have some screen time rules of like, we're not going to let them in the bedrooms, like we don't let our kids have phones in the bedrooms or like, hey, at 10 o'clock at night, we're not going to do it. Our phones don't come to the dinner table, so that we can have this conversation. And I think we have to be doing that as parents. Now, it's way easier. I get it. It's way easier, like if you're exhausted after a long day, just let them scroll. But is that what's best? And I think that's where we as parents have to lean in and say, hey, how do we get into our kids' lives in a meaningful way, not just to say, hey, we're going to take them from scrolling to Instagram talking about algebra. But how do we go from Instagram to algebra to like, hey, what's Christ teaching you and how do you live your life? And what does that mean when you're 13, 15, 17, before you turn 29? Because outside of knowing the Lord, the second most important thing is who do you marry? And if you don't know who you are, then you're going to run into somebody that also doesn't know who he or she is. And then you're creating a mess. And you're going to spend years and years trying to unwind it. I saw a stat, and I don't remember exactly where this is from, but it was a stat that says, you have to spend, I think it was like something like a thousand hours with your kids, intentional hours before they turn 18. And for every hour you don't spend with them before 18, you have to spend 10 hours to make up for the one you didn't spend. And so, if you're not there and you miss one or two hours and you have to have 20 or 30 hours on the other side to make up for that, that is a very, very difficult thing to do. And I think too many dads are looking back and saying, I missed their high school years or I missed their elementary years. And none of us want to do that. 

Chris Powers: And do you think that's something of like a recent, not recent phenomenon, but like we were joking about this earlier. Like when I grew up, if my dad was up at school, it was not a good day for me. Like I was in trouble. Now, I take my kids to school in the morning and go up and read for mystery reader or something like that. Dads are at the school all the time. And so, on some ways, I feel sorry for maybe, not feel sorry for, but the men that are much older because that just wasn't how the world was. I don't know if the word’s that they're being punished for it. It's just not how it was. Those men probably would have been there. There's also a balance of that. You can swing back and forth. But I don't know, what does it say about the world now? Maybe it's the younger generations are always reeling from their childhood... I guess it's been noticed there was a lack of dad in my life, and so now we're correcting back to the way that it was. 

Jason Illian: Well, I mean, think about our dads or the older generation. They didn't have the Internet or cell phones. They couldn't keep their job going if they went up to the school for three hours. You and I could return emails or take a call on the way there, take a call on the way back. So they were just hamstrung by that. They didn't get that opportunity. And it also wasn't part of culture as a society that the men did that. I think it's very healthy that the men are stepping up and taking more leadership roles. Our kids desperately need to see their dads. The Barna study data reveals that if the dad goes to church, if the dad leads in the spiritual development of the family, the chances that his kids become believers are like 90%. If the moms do it, it's like in the 30 percentile.

Chris Powers: Why is that? 

Jason Illian: It's because... the way we often think about it in our house is like, even when I go out of town and I'm out working or whatever, Alicia at times says, sometimes the kids are a little bit harder to wrangle. She goes, but when you drop the big elephant back in the house, all the other elephants are trying to like, okay, the big dog's back here. And it's not a sense of fear. It's the sense of God's designed men to lead. He's called us to lead our families. And so, it's so innate that when we actually do our job, they respond because they're designed to respond that way because they know the men are called to step up and lead their families. Now, society wants to take this as like, well, that just means you're trying to make women submissive. They have no role. And that's not what I'm saying. What I'm trying to say is that there's no woman that I know that if her husband is leading and providing and serving and caring and loving her well, she's like, I hate this job. 

Chris Powers: Yeah, this sucks. 

Jason Illian: Yeah, no, they're going to be like, sign me up for that. And so we have to lead in a way that's loving and biblical and on purpose for our wives. But if we're doing that, it then allows our wives to do what they do well, which is help raise our kids, help teach our kids. And there's lots of ways my wife leads our kids even better than I do. And so, I'm unlocking and giving her the opportunity to use her gifts better when I use my gifts. And a lot of times as men, we really believe in the provider side of things, but we forget on the other things that we have to do in terms of like even the protection side. We think of protection physically, but do we protect them from their phones? Do we protect them from the people around them? Do we protect their hearts? And are we that, the priest and prophet we talked about? Are we doing those things to lead our family? When we see that, we shouldn't be then surprised if our sons grow up to do that and our daughters grow up to find somebody like that.

Chris Powers: Okay, you touched on it a second ago. We were just talking about the phone. I feel like on the flip side, the thing that parents of this generation have to deal with that the parents of the older didn't is the phones and media creep and porn is everywhere. It's, what, 99% of the internet or something, like there's some crazy statistic. You can have a six year old that's on YouTube Kids, but can somehow just venture off into one video left alone for 30 minutes. So I guess one question, just curious how y'all have handled it, is how have you treated phones to where you're I would imagine you're probably sometimes the bad guy? But it really is a real thing. I think being dismissive of the phone, and I can tell you as my eight year old and maybe I'm naive, she hates our phones. So I may be thinking like maybe she is going to grow up and that generation is not going to like their phone as much because they were the kids that like saw their parents on the phone... We turn our phone off at 7am on Sunday. We turn it on after they go to bed. We're six weeks into this experiment. And without a doubt, it is the best day of the week for a lot of reasons, but you realize really quickly like the phone is such a distraction. Going back to media and kids, one, I just want to start with like what has been your ground rules, and has it worked? Is it a work in progress? What have you seen work and not work? 

Jason Illian: Yeah, so it's a knife fight. I mean, because these phones are so addictive. I would say the first time I realized that there was going to be a problem is when I was in the Bay Area talking to a bunch of guys who started social media, started the first flip phones, started all this. And I was asking them, and they're like, we don't give our kids phones. And I'm like, so you guys invented the drug and now you don't give the drug to your own kids, basically is what you're telling me. And I realized that if these executives and tech leaders aren't giving the phones to their own kids, they realize something really powerful about them. Now, that being said, our phones can be used for all sorts of amazing things. Like you said, we couldn't go to our kids’ school and return our emails or do a video chat if we didn't have that capability. But because of Instagram and Snapchat and porn and predators and a thousand other things, it's made parenting now a thousand times harder than it ever was for our- I think about our parents. Somebody had to call that phone that was attached to the wall if they wanted to talk to us. Now, how many people reach out to my kids every day and I don't have any way to flag it unless I just take their phone. So, we started early by not giving them phones as early as most families. 

Chris Powers: So, what age? 

Jason Illian: So typically, so we often say in our house, it's not necessarily about age. It's about maturity. So, you have to hit- you have to get to a certain sense of maturity that you can handle these things before we give them to you. And so that also goes back to dating, which we can talk about. But usually in the late middle school, so typically seventh and eighth grade is where we gave them phones for the first time. And then once they have it, they don't have social media. So our kids don't get social media until they typically get like freshman or sophomore. And then whatever social media they're on, they have to be on it where we have the login as well. Now, if you have kids that are athletes, you know football is typically recruited through Twitter. Volleyball is typically recruited through Instagram. So there's different platforms they use. So, my daughter needs to put up her volleyball stuff on Insta because that's how the coaches see. My son has to put his stuff on Twitter because that's how the colleges see. And so they started coming to us being like, hey, we can't put our stuff up unless we have access. Well, if you have access, that's great. I want access too. As long as you're good at me seeing what you do, then we can work on that. And then you'll also start to get there are certain teams or clubs or anything else, they coordinate their activities through Snapchat or they coordinate their activities through Instagram. They don't even use- like if you and I text back and forth, my kids think we're dinosaurs. 

Chris Powers: They ask you what's your Snap. 

Jason Illian: Yeah, they don't even use text. Like if you and I use text, they think that's what our ancestors did back in the dinosaur days. It's like, why are you sending me that? So they do all of that through Snap or Insta. That is their preferred platform. So all that being said is parents have to be wise and discerning about at what age do you give the phone and then which applications you let them have. I have screen time on all my kids, even my 17 year old. And the hope is that at certain ages, you give them more and more freedom because they're going to be out of the house. So, my 17-year-old has more freedom now with his phone because he's earned it. And someday he's going to walk out of the house and be able to visit any site he wants. Whether it's reading the Bible or looking at porn, he's going to have that freedom because he's his own man. I need to get him to a point that he's wise enough to do this on his own. So I've got to slowly give him more freedom over time, which is hard. Because it's not like it's a straight line, like in business, everybody gives you the business plan. It's like, well, if you invest this, it goes up and to the right. It's like kids, they don't necessarily go up and to the right, they zigzag, like they have moments of weakness and problems and everything else. And so they're teachable moments. And that's how we have to use them as teachable moments with our kids to say what happened. So I'll give you a good scenario and a bad scenario. Bad scenario. I think it was eighth grade. Actually, I think it was seventh grade. My son was at a Christian private school. And one of the other kids basically started sending him porn that he had screenshotted and was texting to him through his phone during school hours at a Christian school. This was not even... He wasn't searching it out. He got it naturally that way. We had to find this. We had to take it in front of the whole school, the whole rigmarole. That can show you it's terrible and a terrible way to do it. On the other side of things, I've also seen my kids use their phone to share the gospel with their friends, to use it as an opportunity to minister to others. I've also seen them put it down and go play and have fun and do other things. And so I've seen both sides of it, and I know it's something that we as parents have to be intentional about every step of the way. If we're not, then you can fall into the ditch on either side. 

Chris Powers: And man, the algorithms, like you said, like those executives know exactly what they're doing. My wife's, my sister-in-laws, but my wife's younger sisters, they're sophomores in college. So big age gap. I've known them since they were five. So I've just- you just get to kind of witness how that generation does it. And like you said, they snap everything. Snap will show you where all your friends are at any one time, so you know when you're left out. It will show you... they said the other day you can pay a premium, and I was like, what do you pay the premium for? Like in text messages, you can see if it's been read or not. But I guess the Snap premium, it shows you if they've even like spent enough time reading it, they didn't even have to open it. So it shows you like it has been looked at. So, you know you're not getting responded to. 

Jason Illian: Have you seen the leaderboard in Snap? 

Chris Powers: Okay. Okay, I think then they mentioned like a leaderboard thing. 

Jason Illian: Which is even worse because then you're like, well, am I responding to enough and being active enough? Like it's basically feeding you the drug that says, do more, do more, do more, do more, do more. So everything that comes in- think about this. At the end of the day, you can build the algorithm to say, the quicker you respond, the longer you respond, the more you respond, the better you are. So it's teaching you to do this. None of those things are healthy. Because at the end of the day, you may get 50 people reaching out to you, but only two of them really deserve a response at this time based on what your day is going and what you're doing. So the algorithm can lie to you. And it does. 

Chris Powers: Okay. So we can probably sit here and go, it's easy to maybe lose hope or think we're heading in the wrong direction. And I'll bring it back again to Dude Perfect. It's not even necessarily Dude Perfect. It's like a revival of what people actually want. And the proof is in the pudding. Dude Perfect would not have grown to the size it has off just sports alone. They have a culture. They have a message. And so, I don't know if it's some data points or just things you can share from your board seat overseeing the fastest growing family media company in the world. What is the world saying it actually wants, despite what we've just said, which is all these algorithms that make you sick and drunk on the world? 

Chris Powers: Yeah, yeah. So what Dude Perfect's done such a great job of is it's taken all these tools, but it's used them for good. And it's used them through the sports and media lens, which sports is like a universal language. It doesn't matter whether you like football or cornhole, we’re competitive, we like to have fun. And they've used that as this great microphone. So, they have over a hundred million followers across their platforms. This summer, they did their tour in 20 cities from anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000 seat stadiums that were filled up. And the overwhelming response that we get from parents is like, this content brings us together. It lets us have fun and it's on purpose. And while the guys are Christians and they’re believers, they're not flying the flag up front. It's not a Bible study, but they are reminding you just through they don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't do any of the types of things that would lead you down the wrong path. And so kids have fun watching them, but they're also encouraged to not just be watching it, but go play. Go with your family and play. And so they've built this amazing amount of trust with families, with moms. You can't set your kids down in front of everything, but you can set them down in front of Dude Perfect and say, whatever they put out, we just trust. And that has helped an entire generation. So we believe that investment made sense not only financially, but it's having an impact for culture and financially too. Because people believe and trust you, they spend more because they want the hat for their kid. They want to bring them to that event to meet Cody or Tyler. They want them to be around guys like this that are living intentionally with their lives. And so, despite what they may tell you, it's a really good business to be on purpose and to do things right and do things well. And we've seen that through Dude Perfect. And that just attracts more and more creators and media companies around us that we can have an influence on. 

Chris Powers: Okay. So our other... and Dude Perfect's what we're talking about. But are you seeing this now bleed into other media outlets and other shows popping up? And is this expanding? Are people looking at Dude Perfect as kind of an example and you're starting to see this across media? Because I think, like this past week, I think Netflix had some deal on converting kids to trans. Like, there was so much evil in some of the... And I think five years ago, we were all told to shut up and just kind of let it pass. Like, you saw this very strong, we're not going to do this. Are you seeing that across the media landscape? I'm picking on Netflix, but just in general, this kind of revival of good content?

Jason Illian: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, Dude Perfect's not the only one. You can go look at Mark Rober. He's got 60 million views and he's the science guy. He makes science fun. And he's the one that if you've ever seen the video where people were stealing packages off your porch, he made them so they'd blow up in your face with sparkles and all sorts of stuff. He makes science and understanding science and nature and things fun, and he's super popular. He doesn't cuss, smoke, drink, do any of the bad things. Nick DiGiovanni, he's kind of the kid chef. He's got 30 million viewers. And these guys are the ones leading the next charge, but they're all family friendly. What that tells me is like, that is what's speaking to the broader audience. We can use the transvestite and the drug filled and the porn ones, but those aren't the ones leading. There is a far left group that is trying to drag us down there, but they're in the minority. Let's be honest. They're not the majority. And what you've seen over the last six months with Charlie Kirk and other ones, people have finally stood up and said enough. Like, we've had enough of this nonsense of, you can choose whether you're a man or a woman, you can choose your pronouns. Like none of that's real. And we're finally waking up to the fact of like we can say something about it. In fact, we should be saying something about it. The only regret that I have is we haven't said something earlier. We should have been louder earlier. 

Chris Powers: Why do you think that is? Why do you think maybe like moments in time and it's not just today, but it's the test of time, sometimes it takes a martyr dying on camera or just these cultural moments that you never forget that gives people the permission to do what they knew they should be doing all along?

Jason Illian: Yeah. In one word, I think it's fear. I think, especially during the last four to eight years, it was fear not only to speak up, but also fear that if we did speak up, the government themselves was against us. They would tell us to be quiet. We now have leadership that's like, if you speak up, that is part of your free speech. That's okay. So people now believe they should speak up in any situation. Now, what I would argue is that as Christians, we should speak up in any situation. We should speak for truth in any situation. And we shouldn't be surprised if it costs us something. Because it cost our Lord and Savior something, it cost him his life. So if you lose some followers, or you lose a business deal, or the guy down the street doesn't want to talk to you because you spoke truth, it should probably cost you something. And so, we need to be reminded of this as men. When we speak truth, not everybody's going to like that. There is going to be a loud vocal minority. And there are people with guns and things that are going to try to silence you. But what we need to also remember is the people that are yelling at us, those are the very people we need to love. We're not here to win an argument. We're here to win the person. And so, we have to do this in such a way, we have to speak truth in such a way, but we have to do it with gentleness and kindness. And that was the one thing I admired so much about Charlie Kirk and the people around him is he spoke freely, but he wanted you to come to the table. He's like, bring your questions. Let's talk about this. And we should be doing that with our neighbors. We should be doing that with the school board. We should be doing that everywhere and saying like, I'm just disagreeing with you. Let's come to the table and discuss how do we get this to a better situation. And by the way, I'm not leaving the table either until we do resolve it. If we can have more of a culture, and I think that's what our country was built upon. We were built upon that freedom to speak what we believe. Even if you and I disagree wholeheartedly on the subject, we should be able to sit here and have that conversation. And as Christians with a biblical worldview, we speak of that from a truth perspective because we know what it is, but we don't alienate the people across the table. We do it in such a way that we want you to go with us. We want you to be with us and understand that we're not a perfect people. We just have a perfect savior. And that's what gives us that freedom to speak that way. 

Chris Powers: The algorithms keep us hooked and addicted. But the other thing that's like you have hope that you overcome it is like they also create worlds for you where what you're seeing every day is completely different. Like I have conversations with people, and it's not about whether I'm right or they're wrong or they're right or I'm wrong. You just realize in the moment, oh my gosh, they see the world through such a different view because of the content that they are fed every day. And I don't know if we overcome that, but that is something that's been introduced into the world where the echo chamber and the security of keeping a message wrapped around you is it all is at an all-time high.

Jason Illian: Well, and we have to remember as those that have truth, like we can get in our own echo chamber too and alienate ourselves by not hearing what the other side's hearing. So not having compassion or understanding of why they're taking the approach that they're taking. So we have to be... This is what I love about Deuteronomy 6, where it's talking about leading your family. It's literally talking about when do you do this? Well, you do it in the home or along the road. You do it when you get up and when you go to bed. So it's basically saying you're doing it in your home and everywhere else. You're doing it when you get up in the morning and at night and every time in between. So we have to go with people through this process. And it's easy to dislike somebody you don't talk to. It's really hard to dislike them if you take them to lunch. And so, so many walls come down when we just sit down and have conversations. Now, I've walked out of a lot of conversations where people probably still didn't like me a whole lot, but we had an honest conversation. And I have some great friends that we just vehemently disagree on a number of things, but we're friends and we still get together and we're still talking through issues and we're still disagreeing. But we're progressing, we're moving in the right direction because we're having the conversation. So I have hope. And I think that is one thing we can instill in people no matter where we land. Can I give you hope? When I walk out of this room, did you feel a sense of hope that there is a better tomorrow, that there is a chance, that we got an opportunity? And I think if we instill that in our kids, we instill that in the people around us, we instill that in what we do at work and school, the world can change. It really can. 

Chris Powers: What gives you hope? 

Jason Illian: Well, I mean, I get a lot of hope, first and foremost, just because of the gospel. Because imperfect people that are supposed to be reaching a perfect God, how do you do that? You've got to have somebody step in between as the savior. So Christ gives me a lot of hope. The second thing is I see it in my kids. I see that there's going to be a better world because I see how they're growing and maturing and loving people well, even far better than I ever did when I was a kid. I was a pretty selfish kid, I think, looking back on it. But I see what they're doing and I see their friends being influenced by them and that maturing. And for as much as we hate technology, it also works in reverse. Like when there is hope, it spreads incredibly fast because we have the tools to do that. And so, listen, we still live in the best country in the world, no question. You can travel the world and see other parts of it. We live in an incredible country. And I think we're going to hand this to a generation that's more intentional than we were. And so that should give us all hope that we're on a good path. And we always say in our house, and especially in business, you have to have a framework of how you think about the future. And ours is either you can leave a legacy or you can leave an empire. The empire... 

Chris Powers: But you can't leave both. 

Jason Illian: You can't leave both. Empire is for you. People have built big companies and stuff, and they either have their name on it or it's just for their family or whatever. It's just an empire. It will crumble, just like the Roman Empire, always crumble. Or you can leave a legacy. If you leave a legacy, everybody benefits because the values, the beliefs, those all continue, and they spread. And that goes far beyond having your name on a wall or investing in Dude Perfect or building the next great company. And all those are good things. They just shouldn't be the things that define you. 

Chris Powers: So if somebody's sitting here listening and they're probably thinking, this isn't the track I've been on. I've already got kids. I've never really been curious about God. I've lost a lot of hope in a lot of things. And you probably come across these people daily. I think we all do. And there's days where I have no hope. And you can kind of see it in their eyes, and you can just kind of see the weight that you sit on. Like, what do you tell those people? What do you tell those people?

Jason Illian: Yes. C.S. Lewis has a quote about the most progressive man is the man who knows he's on the wrong road and turns back first. So the most progressive of the man is the one who turns back first. And I think that's a story of all of us, in some way, shape or form, have all been on the wrong road or are on the wrong road right now in some aspect of our life. And so, if you're heading down the wrong road on how you love your wife, turn back now. Put some guys around you that say, you guys are loving your lives, wives well, how do you do that? Help me do that. If you're in the wrong job, start thinking right now about how do I move to a job that allows me to care for my and provide for my family well? That doesn't mean quit your job today and be without work, but that may mean, okay, I need to start looking now because I need to be in a better role. If you're hanging out with a bunch of drinking buddies and all you do is drink and look at girls, find a new set of guys, go to your Bible study. Find some other guys that are intentional. Like, it's all- they're just choices. And it is hard to break our habits. There's a reason that, the saying of, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, especially as you and I have gotten older, we can see that we have habits. But I would even tell my friends that have great habits where like, I'm up at five o'clock in the morning, I'm working out. Like you're working your physical body, but have you worked your spiritual body? You can make a change, but they’re are choices. You spend time going down to your home in Cabo. How much time have you spent taking your kids to Bible study? These are all choices that we make and we're just as guilty, I'm just as guilty of like, hey, it's Monday night football, do we all want to watch football? Or can you use football as an opportunity to talk to your kids about their day while you sit and watch? Boys or men, we talk better shoulder to shoulder while we're doing something. I have my best conversations with my boys when we're out there playing catch with the football, taking my dogs for a walk. When we take the golden doodle and the Maltese for a walk, the boys just open up. My daughter, I don't need to take the dog for a walk. I can sit across the table. She'll talk for hours. They're pretty good face-to-face. Men are better shoulder-to-shoulder. 

Chris Powers: And do you think it's fear that drives, like JP said it, he sometimes says, we're like dogs that just keep going back to our vomit. We know what we're doing is wrong, we wish we could stop it, but we just keep doing it. Is that kind of tied back to probably the word fear again, just like the fear of changing, despite even knowing that what we're changing is something that needs to be changed? 

Jason Illian: Listen, we all have weaknesses and areas where we're sinful people. That's why we need a savior. And so left to our own accord, we will return to our own vomit time and time and time again. And so, excuse me, I think that's why God created it in such a way that, one, he gives us an amazing wife, but also as men, we put other men around ourselves, and as women, we put other women around ourselves to say, hey, I got a blind spot. I need you to help me here. This is where I struggle. It's the same way that Roman armies and other ones used to fight. They used to fight with a shield in their left hand and a sword in their right hand because their sword was, when they're on the offensive, that is their weak spot because they have no way- So they would fight shoulder to shoulder so you could protect the man next to you. So even if you go watch an old gladiator movie where they first hit in the arena and Maximus is out there with them, he is trying to get them to work together. And the guy that runs off on his own is the first one to get hit by an arrow, because he's out there all by himself with a shield. He has a shield, he has a sword, but he's by himself. And so we're all going to take more arrows if we're not walking side by side. And I think we all will, to use JP's analogy that comes from the Bible, we will return to the same sinful habits that we have unless I can be open and transparent with you and say, Chris, this is what I'm struggling with. And now you can check in on me and say, hey, if you're struggling with X, Y, and Z, if you have that spending habit, how about you don't take that credit card with you when you go out, or if you have that, if you're addicted to Instagram, just delete the app, man. And we can help each other remain accountable to it. And that's how we grow as men. And that starts, if we do that, if you and I do that, how much more will our kids do that if they see their parents doing it? And I think this is something that we often miss too in just the parenting thing, piece. More of it is really caught than taught. Our kids catch more than they get from our teaching. And so if they see us living it out, they're going to assume that's how we live it out. If you have dinner with your family, they're going to grow up in their marriage and say, we should have dinner with our family. Even if you never told them why, they're going to do it because you did it. And I think that is what we have to do. We have to live it out in our own lives. 

Chris Powers: And again, just kind of reading high level, they say that it's like the loneliest generation of men. Men are like as lonely as they've ever been. And so, I think, again, our friendship that's been going on for a long time, one thing I'm super grateful for is like God has always surrounded me with incredible men. And my whole adult life is like just men showing up that didn't want to see me do the next stupid thing. But there are some men probably going like, I don't have this. How do I even get going on this? And I don't even have a great answer. I mean, I guess my first answer would be like, go to church and find a Bible study. That sounds like the easy way, but I think first is acknowledging like, I don't have a group of men in my life that I need in my life. And that kind of sets you off on the journey to find, doesn't have to be ten guys, two, three guys that you can share with. 

Jason Illian: I mean, I would go so far as to say find one guy to start with. Find one guy that loves you for you, that is not impressed because you make a million dollars or you're a schoolteacher, whatever. We all need one friend that just loves us for who we are and is willing to deal with the ups and downs and the crap that comes with our lives. And when you have that one buddy, you almost feel invincible to start with. Because then you can come in and talk about the amazing conversation you had with your wife or the fight you had with her that lasted until three in the morning. And I've had both. And so we need those men in our life that will come and speak truth to us when we need to hear it and just to walk alongside us in the aspect of life. So I always start with people saying, find that one guy, find that one guy that is a godly man that'll walk with you. And through that, then I think that opens up to like, you need to be in a church, you need to be in a local body of believers. But you also need to just take a look at your own phone and your own life. I mean, if you want to see where you're spending your life, just look at your bank account and your calendar. That'll tell you what you're doing. If you don't like it, change it. Start changing the way your calendar looks. Start changing the way you spend your money and your life will start changing dramatically. And I've found too, it's like, I'm busy. I don't have a very passive, I don't sleep until 10 and then done by two every afternoon. But I will say like, even in the mornings, when I'm taking my son to school, I'm often listening to a sermon on the way there or on the way back... I'm looking for ways to, not only be fed, but also feed my kids spiritually. And then I'm also looking for ways throughout the day to say, what are their blocks in my calendar that can I take my wife to lunch? When I get home, am I really turning everything off? Or is that phone going to ping until midnight? And if my wife was sitting here, she'd be like, wow, some days he's awesome. And other days he's awful at this. So, it's not like I'm... I'm not winning every day. But I'm trying to be very intentional about that. And so, to quote the coach again, I'm not the man I want to be yet, but at least I’m not the man I used to be. 

Chris Powers: And the truth is, like all these men of all these different ages, something that resembles what you just said shows up in their life at some point. For some guys, it's earlier in life. For some guys, it's later in life. And like the message isn't don't work hard, don't love what you do, don't try and do something great on this earth. In fact, God wants us to use our talents and be great. He's just saying don't idolize them. If your whole foundation is on the success of your business, things will crumble. 

Jason Illian: This was the conversation we started with when we talk about our kids. When I talk to Reign or Sage about being great at sports, it's okay to be great at sports. It's okay to be great at work. But your identity is not built into it. You need to be able to walk off the field one day and be like, I didn't die. That was great for that season of life. I gave it all that I could and maybe we won a championship and maybe we didn't, but I'm not identified because I built that company or ran that team or threw that touchdown or spiked that ball or whatever. And the problem we have as men and as women, but we have our identity tied to what we do, not who we are. And we have to peel that apart and say like, my identity, if my whole firm falls apart tomorrow and Dude Perfect craters and something was to happen to my family, my identity doesn't change. My identity as a believer doesn't change. Eternity is still within my grasp. Like none of that changes. But if you don't have that hope, then you're always clawing at the next thing. I've got to find the next deal... Yeah, I got to have the next million. I got to fight for the next opportunity. Those are all good things. They just shouldn't take the place of what's really purposeful intention. 

Chris Powers: Can you expand what you said, eternal perspective, can you expand on what is an eternal perspective? 

Jason Illian: Yeah, I mean, the eternal perspective is looking at life in such a way that once you become a believer or you're following Christ, you don't die, you transition. Like I'm not going to have this body forever, which as I get older is probably a good thing. It's hurting a little bit more than it used to. But God's designed us to be with him for eternity. Our souls are designed to be with him for eternity, which is why he sent his one and only son to die on a cross in our place so that we could be with him. And people are like, well, I don't like it that God sends people to hell. Really, he doesn't send people to hell in the way you think. He's basically saying, do you want to be with me or not? And the people that say, I don't want to be with you, that's your other option. But the eternal perspective is realizing that you're playing the infinite game, not the finite game. And we are all playing the infinite game, whether we like it or not. And the finite game is you sold your company. That's great. The finite game is we're raising our kids, and they'll be out of the house. That's a finite game. But the infinite game is that we have souls that will live forever. And the more we think about playing that game, the infinite game, the more you feel free. You don't have to win every battle. You don't have to prove something with your wife in that conversation. You can deal with your son or daughter struggling with something because you see it as a growth opportunity. And so, I'm always reminded of playing the- having an eternal perspective and playing the infinite game. 

Chris Powers: Yeah. It's like if you're sitting here at the- and you've been married, the thousand times you've struggled to win that final argument, and then I ask you right now, do you remember one of them? The answer is no. It is all like just quick hits, that as you sit there years back, there's no great man I've ever met that's like, life was great. And there was this day on December 18, 2004, I won this, I got this extra word in, and it made all the difference. But in the moment, it feels like the biggest thing. 

Jason Illian: It's because we're emotional beings. And we always say in our house that feelings are real. They're just not always reliable. And so you feel like you need to prove a point with your wife or your kids. Like, I've got to win this. The reality is like, you're not winning anything by creating space more between you and your wife. And so the real question is like, how do you bring two of you together more closely and in the spousal battles. And I'm married to somebody that's very hard-driven. She's very accomplished. She's very talented. So you can imagine with two people in this house that are very hard-driven, when one person starts to pull the sword, the other one pulls the sword and it's just swords to the death. And early in our marriage, that's what it would be like. We would fight till two or three in the morning about something because I'm not giving in, I'm not going to let her win. We've gotten better to the point that we realize now that we're on the same team. Us destroying each other with cuts is not going to help. And honestly, the number one thing I tell men, if you really want to meet your wife where she is and you're in a heated battle, if you can sit down with her and pray, it just sucks the emotion out of the room because it's really hard to pray angry. And when you sit there and say, Lord, I just want to first say, own my own stuff. Forgive me, Lord, for not leading my wife well. Forgive me for saying things I shouldn't have said. When you start to put your shields down, their shields immediately come down. And this is the whole idea of like, if we're in a disagreement, my wife and I, even if I think she's 99% wrong, can I draw a circle around myself and own my 1%? And if I can own my 1%, the chances that she will then put her shields down and own some of her stuff are pretty high. And if she doesn't, then that's between her and God at the time. That's okay. I still love her and we're still going to keep working through things. But if I can do that and she can do that, then we get on the same page. And oh, by the way, then my kids will do that too. Because they'll see dad doesn't always have to be right. Dad doesn't always have to be the one on top. Dad doesn't have to be- My dad, I've never heard my dad say I'm sorry. Never. I think I'm not sure he's ever thought he's wrong. And I don't want my kids to think that about me. Like I want my kids to realize dad was a good man, a godly man, but not a perfect man. And because he wasn't perfect, that's why he needed a savior. And that's why each and every day he was growing. And there were probably some seasons of life, if I'm being honest, they saw a lot of growth. And there's probably some season that they didn't see a lot of growth. And I had one of those moments recently where my son was with me and we were talking about my folks. And I was really frustrated with my folks. And he turns to me and he goes, dad, you give a lot of people quite a bit of grace and mercy. Why don't you do that with your own family? And I was- I just said, I should. And I was grateful that he called me out on it. I was grateful that he saw it. He's wise enough now to see that. And I was also grateful enough at the moment that I didn't defend myself because I like to defend myself. I'm pretty good at defending myself. But at that moment, I realized he's right. And I'm like, I need to show my parents more grace and mercy. They're in their 70s now. They're not the same people they used to be. 

Chris Powers: We were talking about this the other day, and I was just verbalizing how I felt about it, but it was basically the things that we fear the most we judge the most, and the higher the judgment, the less the grace. And so, I could sit here and say it's coming from a good place. I fear my kids not being great kids. I fear not having a great marriage. I fear, even in business, not having an awesome business. Therefore, I'm way more critical of it. And the more critical I am of that, critical and grace have a- they’re opposites. They do not work together. And that was kind of my way of verbalizing maybe what you said, is I could sit here and say it's coming from a good place, it just lands completely wrong. The good place is being, one, fearful of my kids not being great. But the other part of that is like when you're fearful, you couldn't be further from the Lord because the Lord is the prince of peace. And when you're close, you're not fearful. And you realize it's not all on you. 

Jason Illian: Yeah, that's really well said. We often hear in our family when there's like fighting or we're disagreeing, somebody will say, well, I'm just being honest. I'm like, okay, so let's unpack that a little bit to say if you're just being honest, but you whack me with a baseball bat, it wasn't taken well. So your honesty will not be applied. So, then it becomes like you can be honest and truthful, but can you do that with gentleness and kindness in such a way that I will actually accept it? And we have to do that with our wives and our kids, but we have to do that in business too. At the end of the day, we're going to have lots of business interactions that they're not going to remember why they bought the building or did the deal, but they're going to remember dealing with Chris. And they're going to remember the integrity that you had and that when something went well, you said, this is great and here's what's going on. When something went wrong, you said, here's what we're dealing with and how we're trying to overcome it. I've had multiple instances growing as a businessman where something has gone wrong and some older, wiser, kind gentleman stepped in and said, Jason, it's okay. You're handling it well. I'm going to keep supporting you. That meant the world to me because I felt like my world was falling apart. Like the business was falling apart. I was failing my investors. And one guy has enough to step in and be like, you got this. We're invested with you. We got you. And they were investing in me. And they were okay with the downs. And so I now try to have that same understanding and sympathy and grace to help the people that we're investing in realize you're going to have ups and downs. And just because you're down, it doesn’t make you any less of a person. We're with you now too. 

Chris Powers: The truth is like through all those, you're just building more character as you go along. And wise people understand that. They understand this is- it may not feel good to lose money or have made a mistake, but the longer they stay with you, they know they're now proverbial riding a horse that's having more wisdom and more character built into the system. 

Jason Illian: Because you're playing the eternal infinite game. This is something that if I could just wake up every morning and be reminded, Jason, you're playing the eternal infinite game, your success, your wealth is defined more than by what's in your bank account and what the world thinks, if you can do this each and every day, you can really have an impact. I think that was once again, to bring it back to the Charlie Kirk situation, I think that was a wake-up call for many of us. He wasn't successful by world standards. He didn't make a ton of money, he didn't have a bunch of houses. He wasn't even an elected official or something. He wasn't in a place of prominence and power, but he spoke truth and he met people where they were. And he killed him for that. And yet millions of people showed up to celebrate him at his funeral. Why is that? It wasn't position, wasn't wealth. It's because he spoke truth and had an impact. And I think that's what we all want. We all at the end of the day, when my time here is done, you want people to show up and like, that was a good man, because they're not going to talk about your building your business. They're going to talk about you and the impact that you had on their lives. And Charlie did that. And that's a great wake up call for all of us that we should be doing that. And our kids are watching this too. That's going to be a core memory for them. 

Chris Powers: And people know, and I think people deep, deep down inside, and we talked about as the Holy Spirit earlier, know when they're being told the truth and they know when they're not. And somebody told me the other day like if the truth you think is the truth is making you angrier and angrier and sicker and sicker and madder and madder, that's not the truth. There is no eternal truth that makes you a meaner angrier person. That is a lie. Lies cripple us from the inside. And I hadn't really heard it that way before, but it's like, it's so true. If something that you believe is the truth is making you angrier and more volatile and sadder and more- it doesn't mean you can't be sad at moments, but if the constant theme is a downward spiral, it's time to step back and just say like, is this really the truth? 

Jason Illian: It's interesting to see where this comes out too. So to use just a common everyday example, youth sports. Go watch the parents at youth sporting events. For the most part, it's become fairly ugly in the high-level competition. Everybody out there thinks that we're playing for the Super Bowl. I mean, I've been to youth sporting events where they have cops walking around so that things don't get in fights. And I'm like, really? Does anybody out here look like they're an NBA superstar? What are we doing? But one, it's on our inability to grasp the truth that your kid is 5 '1", and he's probably not going to play in the NBA no matter how good he is. And two, we're losing the perspective that that youth sport was designed to help him become more of a team player, a better leader, and build character. And the parents lose their minds, so then the kids lose their minds because the parents are losing their minds. It's a bad downward spiral. But I've also seen it work the other way. And I've seen great teams learn how to work together and parents supportive of those things. And I've seen my daughter's volleyball team as an example, people grow as godly women and also play incredible volleyball at the same time. But they're not going to look back and remember who they played at that one tournament back in the day. They're going to remember that their dad lost their mind and threw the water bottle out on the court. 

Chris Powers: You were talking about identity earlier. My friend and I joke in town, there's parents out there that are like, my entire identity is wrapped up in that three year old getting to first base. And that's the reality of what you see when your identity or a part of it is wrapped up in your son, your daughter playing a sport, getting a hit, anything, when things are going well, you can see it. It's when things don't go well that the gasket blows and you see these grown adults losing their minds over a hit or not a hit. It is pretty wild. 

Jason Illian: Well, and in fairness, I've been one of those. I'm a highly competitive guy and I've seen, I mean, I've never thrown a chair on a court or anything, but there's times I've wanted to. There's times I've yelled stuff where my wife's put her hand on me like, I think that's enough. And I'm not proud of those. Those are the times that I have let the fleshness get the best of me and lost perspective. That's not the man I want to be. But I see how people left to their own accord, like returning to their own vomit, to use your example. They just keep going back there because their identity is tied to the success of their kid. And the reality is my kid's success is not defined whether he becomes president, CEO, or a schoolteacher, or works as a janitor. That's not what I'm trying to develop. God can use any of those roles. And so, when you kind of change your mindset to realize it's not about the financial success or the necessary role that they have, but how they do it, you live much more free. And it’s a much better place to be spiritually and emotionally, because you don't think so tight. I don't feel like I'm tense all the time. But if you feel like your kid has to get that scholarship or has to go to that school or has to get into Harvard or whatever, it's like, oh, you're tense all the time. And usually in my house, when we get in fights, it's because of those things. It's what it says. You fight because you don't get what you want. You war over things of the flesh instead of just trusting in the Lord and changing your perspective to the eternal game. 

Chris Powers: I think maybe a good way to bring it home, and you've just kind of said it episodically throughout this episode, is like I think some people think like following Christ or being a Christian is like being perfect. And what you've demonstrated today is, in fact, it's the opposite. It's understanding who you're not, which is perfect. It's understanding you're an eternal sinner. And it's understanding you need a savior to get you through that. And I think I just wanted to say that. It's been a recurring theme throughout this conversation. It's not righteousness. It's not, I have it all figured out. It's, I don't have it figured out, I understand that about myself, and I need a savior. 

Jason Illian: And it's about that daily growth. It's about being intentional of like, am I going to make Christ the forefront of my life? Is it the number one thing? Because it comes back to the worldview all over again. If you're not seeing your world through a biblical lens, like if that's not your first lens, then you're seeing it through something else. You're political, you're athletic, you're financial, whatever else it is, that will define you. And if you're on that wrong path, if that's not where you are today, that's okay. The real question is, will you turn back? Will you change? I don't think, I've never met of the people that I've spent time with that have been on their deathbed, nobody's ever said, I wish I would have done one more spreadsheet. I wish I would have bought one more company. First thing is like, where are my kids? Where's my wife? Like, who are the people- Where are the people that I love? And then you ask yourself, well, if that is where you're going to be, how do you get there? You don't get there because you made another extra dollar. That's the whole lie that Rockefeller said is like, well, how much is enough? Well, just one more dollar. You never win. You do win because you've poured into your son, your daughter, your wife in such a way that they have eternal perspective, that they know the Lord and that they're telling other people like that. And that's how our world changes and our culture changes. And so, my encouragement to men is that there's so many of them that are doing amazing things right now. Grasp, hold onto those. Do those, focus your life around those things. And those things that you need to change, you can make that change today or you can bring men around you that can help you go do that. And if we don't, it's just a matter of pride. It's like, I don't want to show you my scars, my warts, my problems. But if you walk- I mean, you know me because we've been friends long enough that this is not a perfect man by any stretch. But one that's pointing, trying to point towards Jesus and walk more that direction each and every day. But I need your help to do that. I need Brent's help. I need my wife's help. I need my kids' help. I constantly need that assistance to move that direction. But through that, I hope I'm also helping other people do the same thing. And that's what gives us hope is that each and every day, we're growing. Each and every day, we're getting a little bit better. Each and every day, we're reminded of the hope we have in Christ. Each and every day, that there are great things to look forward to. And even when it's not in our own life, can we look around the people around us and see how they're having an impact and realize that's awesome. And I can find joy in that too. 

Chris Powers: Jason, this was great. 

Jason Illian: Awesome, man. 

Chris Powers: Thanks for joining me today. 

Jason Illian: Yeah, of course. 

Chris Powers: Thanks for coming to Fort Worth. 

Jason Illian: Yeah, I love being in Fort Worth.